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1796 Mexican 8 Reales Turned Pendant, Is It Possible To Determine Ethnic Origin?

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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 05/31/2022  9:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?

I saw this coin come up for sale recently on ebay and was curious by how the piece was turned into a necklace charm. The charm itself appears to have been hand crafted, and the wear pattern on the coin appears to point to it having been worn for a long time before falling apart. What I'm curious to know is if it is possible to determine what group of people would have made a pendant like this out of an old Mexican colonial coin? Is it even possible to tell who did this? What tools would I need to do further research on a piece like this?

Could this possibly be a Native American piece?
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 05/31/2022  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@new, I'll speculate a little, but am definitely interested in others' thoughts.

These sorts of low silver content drops often seem to have origins on the Indian subcontinent. I would think that anything produced by native Americans would generally have turquoise. For proof of origin, I think that you would need to get the exact alloy composition of the home-made loops, including trace elements.

Also, for some further speculation, I'm not convinced that this coin is real. It seems awfully porous and has fuzzy details compared to a struck coin. Let's see what others think.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 05/31/2022  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with Spence - this looks like a cast copy of an 8 reales.
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 Posted 05/31/2022  11:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spence Thank you for the reply!

If this piece was a cast counterfeit, would this coin have come out of the mold in a state similar to how it appears in the photo, or would additional years of circulation be needed to give it the level of detail that appears on the coin now?
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 06/01/2022  06:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good question @new, and I suppose the answer is that it depends. I think what you are really asking is whether this might have been a circulating counterfeit or whether it was made for the jewelry trade. We have folks here who really know these coins better than I do, so I'm hoping we get them to weigh in.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 06/01/2022  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wizened to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks cast to me. Loss of detail across the whole coin. A real coin that was very worn would still have uneven wear, some parts in better shape than other parts.
Possibly sea salvage I suppose. If it were real. But I don't think so. If sea salvage the surface would be very high silver, as salt water leaches out other metals faster than silver.
I would try the magnet slide test to see if the niobium magnet slides slow on the coin.
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 Posted 06/01/2022  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The possibility of this item having been made or used by people from the India subcontinent had me go searching for some evidence of the practice. Here are a few photos I found for anyone who may be interested in the subject. Apparently, these photos were taken in South America / Carribbean. I'm not quite sure what coins are featured in the photos, but perhaps their size relative to other features points to them possibly being crowns of some sort? Countries include Guyana, Trinidad, and Martinique.

1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?

Still, this does not mean that the item in the picture above is from these communities. For all we know, the charm pendant could have been made anywhere.
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 Posted 06/01/2022  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a few more photos.

1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
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 Posted 06/01/2022  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
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 Posted 06/02/2022  07:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The word "coolies" on the photos suggests the East Indian diaspora as field workers in the British Caribbean colonies. That culture is described in V. S. Naipaul's books. He grew up in Trinidad in the 1940's. His book A House for Mr. Biswas loosely describes his father's story of upward mobility, from field labor to journalism. The migration started a century earlier, and by Naipaul's time was a distinct emigre culture in the Caribbean. The books are detailed and satirical. In one of the funnier passages, a well-off family considers itself more traditionally Indian than people that living in India. You can see that national pride in the photos.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
06/02/2022 08:22 am
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 Posted 06/02/2022  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@thq Thank you for the book recommendations! I agree, some of the women in the photos do appear to be quite proud of what they are wearing. I probably would be too if I was wearing something as elegant as those dresses in the photos. Plus the coin necklaces are out of this world.

1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?

Searching through some auction archives helped me to find this set of 8 reales coin pendant pieces. All three appear to be made with counterfeits (contemperory?). Guessing by some of the artistic motifs on the pendants themselves, perhaps these three pieces were made and worn by people a part of the Indian diaspora to British colonies in South America, Central America (?), and the Carribbean?

This lot had an estimated value of 180 euros, but sold for 165 euros. European sale.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cast 8R as a jewelry piece... many such of pieces out of southern Mexico and Guatemala.You will often see them paired with quetzal bird charms, Guatemala or Mexico 1/4 real coins, etc. - the cast 8R would be a centerpiece.

Any similarity to cultural practices of Indian subcontinentals and their descendants in Guyana or Trinidad would be purely coincidental!! Lots of cultures wore coin jewelry...
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 Posted 06/02/2022  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@realeswatcher

That's really fascinating and good points. Do you have any photos of the cast 8R jewelry pieces to share? Were these pieces made to sell at markets or made by any particular ethnic group?
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 Posted 06/03/2022  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spence + @threefifty - you guys are correct, I think this is a cast counterfeit copy. It's porous and the details are definitely fuzzy.

Would anyone be able to guess whether this is contemporary or modern? The added charm piece appears to be worn down quite a bit, particularly at the points where the charm would be hanging. Also, the ball is convex on one side, but flat on the other (poured?). All added parts appears to have been done by hand. Metal content seems to not be 90% or high silver. My guess is either low silver content or white metal (similar feel to 1897 Dominican Republic 1 peso piece). I would need to conduct a specific gravity test to be sure. Coin is not 100% flat, but slightly bent (starts at Carolus's chin, slightly visible in photo below, fold starts at Carolus's nose and moves straight to the "AT"). There is no edge design or very faint traces of it. The edge is 99% flat with very very slight remnents of circles/squares and reeds. The piece overall does appear to have general wear, with no sharp edge.

What do you all think? I greatly appreciate any input!

1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
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 Posted 06/20/2022  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?
1796-Mexican-8-Reales-Turned-Pendant,-Is-It-Possible-To-Determine-Ethnic-Origin?

Here is a set of images of a silver charm piece featuring an Ethiopian silver birr crown. Interestingly enough, the hanging silver charm ball pieces are similar to the single charm piece on the 8 reales pendant. I'm not quite sure if this jewelry piece is from Ethiopia or not, or whether it was made in the region. Regardless, I thought it was a little interesting to find another coin charm with similar decorations added to it.

Historically, did Carolus 8 reales pieces ever find their way into circulation in the horn of Africa through trade?
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