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 Replies: 117 / Views: 11,748 |
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
To all coin collectors,
About a year ago I bought a very rare Polish coin. It was a 5 zloty coin from 1932. It's the rarest coin that was in circulation between the war years in Poland.
Knowing that there is a lot of copies of these coins on the market I decided to send it in to NCS conservation services to double check if the coin was original. A few weeks later it came back as Genuine. While I sent it in I also asked NCS to take photos of the coin. Which they emailed me back.
Mid December 08 I needed some money so I decided to sell the coin on a very popular auction site it Poland called Allegro. A day after the coin was taken off the site because they said it was fake. I also noticed a forum opened up about the coin, saying it was fake, or that the NGC holder was switched around with another coin. Which obviously is not true because I was the one who send the coin in. I also used NCS's photos for the auction.
I got in contact with NCS, NGC grading to resolve the problem, because the coin is guaranteed by them. After talking to them for about two months, waiting for phone calls that never came, or came a lot later then promised this is what I got back from them.
First thing they said was to send the coin in because the NCS holder was changed. So I forwarded NCS there own email with the pictures that they took of the coin. After I did this, they said to send the coin in because they just want to double check if it's real. I asked them what happens if the coin turns out to be fake. They told me they would pay me fair market value of the coin. I told NCS that I don't have a reciept for the coin because I bought the coin at a coin show in Poland. I don't have contact with the dealer. They told me that they would look around at prices of similiar coins and would get back to me with an estimate on what the coin was worth. I waited a bit, and after not hearing back from them for a while I called them. They told me the coin was worth about a certain amount. (which was a joke)
I asked them if I send the coin to them and it turns out to be fake if they could replace the coin for me then.. they said yes. They told me they would look around and get back to me. They called back about a week later saying they couldn't find one.
I showed them a site that had one for sale. They said it was to expensive.
So my choices are:
Send the coin in.. if it turns out to be fake I could..
1. get a fraction of the fair market value of the coin
2. get the coin back with out the holder
3. wait a year until they find a replacement knowing they wont for the price they are willing to pay.
I regret trusting a company like this. I recommend that no one trust them with there grading and other services. They are not being fair at all with what there guarantee is.
What would you do in my situation? I'm not 100% sure if the coin is fake/real.
Thanks in advance, Tomasz
PS. send me an email and I will forward you the pictures of the coin Edited by LondonCoin
02/10/2009 9:31 pm
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New Member
United States
18 Posts |
I don't understand what is your problem with NGC. They did not buy a fake coin for you. You did it. Take it on the dealer who sold you the fake. As for your options. I would go with option #1. Because the fair market value for a fake coin is zero. If NGC is willing to pay get a fraction of the fair market value of a real coin it's still better than zero.
But for you I would advice an option #2 plus ask NGC to refihd the grading fee. In this case you end up exactly in the same position as before you sent the coin to NGC.
Everybody may get burned. Taking risk is a part of buying raw coins. You just got mad with a messanger.
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
I'd send it back if you could "get a fraction of the fair market value of the coin." If your coin is a fake then I'd take it because you'd come out ahead. I would also ask for a refund of all services rendered. Quote:
PS. send me an email and I will forward you the pictures of the coin Please by all means post them here so we can check them out. We have several counterfeit experts on this forum. And Welcome  |
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CCF Sponsor
 Canada
149 Posts |
Not really sure how to post the pictures.. that why I didn't.
Would it be okay if I send the pictures to your email and you post them? Or can you let me know how?
Why would NCS guarantee to pay fair market value on there website. When they actually don't.
If I had contact with the person I bought the coin from trust me I would be all over him for the refund.
Thanks a lot, Thomas
Edited by LondonCoin
02/10/2009 10:31 pm
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
Quote:
Would it be okay if I send the pictures to your email and you post them e-mail sent Check this LINK out first. It's some helpful info on posting pictures. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts |
I understand you still have the original coin. It was determined at one point to be genuine.
The question is WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN THIS SITUATION?
I would not deal with the same grading service if I was not satisfied with the way they conduct business.
I WOULD send the same coin to another of the top 3 grading services and accept the verdict.
After all, I could not sell a coin as genuine
( even if the grading service slab or certificate says it is ) if I am not 100% sure that it is the real thing myself.
If I did that, I would feel guilty and I think it would be dishonest in a way.
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Moderator
United States
6563 Posts |
Quote:
I WOULD send the same coin to another of the top 3 grading services and accept the verdict. A possible solution but that would require sending a raw coin and NCS might just make the possibility of return null and void |
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Valued Member
United States
357 Posts |
First thing. you listened to people that never held the coin in their hands and told you that it was a fake. If it was a fake that can be determined from a photo then I am sure it would have been obvious to NCS.Don't listen to those people. Second thing if the coin is that rare then I think you should send it back to NCS to be double checked and thinking that NCS is willing to take another look at it , then ask them if NGC can verify NCS findings. You have nothing more to lose right now. If they say its real then you are ahead of the game. and those other people are the losers. and if you are still not suren then sent it to PCGS after NGC and NCS tells you it real.If it comes back from PCGS as real then that should be your answer with out question. Remember a little while back about the 1794 large cent that someone found at a coin show for a thousand bucks and every dealer told him it was a fake well it sold at auction in a NGC holder for around $300.000.00 dollars. SEND IT BACK IN.  Edited by norseman012
02/11/2009 12:27 am
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
Here is a link with the pictures on it. Hopefully it doesn't get removed. I don't have 50 posts yet.
<<images below>>
May someone please take the pictures of the site and put them on here.
Edited by LondonCoin
02/11/2009 11:22 am
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Here's the coin in question. I will follow this post up with a second post containing what advice I would offer.   |
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Valued Member
United States
357 Posts |
Very nice pic's and the coin looks very nice too and the slab don't look to be tampered with. Like I said don't listen to those people. People are a funny bunch there are a lot of envy and jealousy in this world. Maybe someone recognized your coin in Poland when you listed it there and was mad that they didn't buy it themselves. like I said before send it back in and stop worrying about those people in Poland.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
OK, I have to qualify this post by stating that I know nothing whatsoever about the specific coin in question - if machaj says it's a rarity, I have to believe him.  Now, machaj, part of your basic complaint is based on the fact that you're willing to accept the words of people who have only seen this coin in photographs against the opinion of NCS. In their favor, these European buyers are likely to have specific knowledge of the coin; they probably do not, however, know just how large and well-respected NCS/NGC is in the numismatic world. NCS, as the restorative arm of NGC, is part of a highly-respected third-party grading service, one of the two largest. They are considered to be a standard, and currently the only appropriate place to send a coin which needs conservation. NCS/NGC has a hard-earned reputation to uphold, and they will make good on a coin they have evaluated in error. I would take their word regarding a coin they have held over the word of any random collector who has only seen a photograph, every single time. That is not to say that NCS is undoubtedly correct; it's just to say that they have far more at stake with their evaluations than any collector. If they say the coin is genuine, I would need substantial evidence to believe otherwise. Have these European collectors presented any evidence? Send the coin back to them for confirmation.I studied your pics very carefully - your images of the edges of the slab are quite accurate. I have seen a large number of NGC/NCS slabs, and this one has not been tampered with. That opinion is final. The second part of your complaint is regarding valuation of the coin. This is more difficult, since this coin is a rarity and does not appear for sale very often. Given that fact, how do you yourself arrive at a market value for the coin? I don't say this to be accusing you, but out of curiosity. My thought, in the absence of a body of evidence for past sales, would be to find a numismatic firm or firms with a long track record of dealing in world coins. One possibility is Northeast Numismatics: http://www.northeastcoin.com/index.jspThey offer a substantial inventory of high-quality world coins for sale. Although they have no 1932's currently in stock, they do have 2-1935's and a 1936 5 Zloty currently listed. The idea is to find an independent arbiter whose opinion would carry sufficient weight with NGC to establish a fair value for the coin. You can make the argument that they lack enough data from real-world sales to be able to form an accurate opinion. I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, this will require you to continue applying pressure, and much legwork on your part to make your case. Although NGC will make good if the coin is not authentic, they are, after all, in business to make money and will likely need to have their noses held to the grindstone in order for you to be made properly whole. |
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CCF Sponsor
Canada
149 Posts |
People in Poland are saying the date has been switched around. These coins came out in 1928, 1930, 1931, and 1932. They take a 1930 or 31, take the 0 or 1 off and then put a 2 in from the 1928 coin.
Thanks for the welcome to this forums. Also Thank you for posting the pictures. Those pictures are the ones NCS took.
There is only one that I know of that is being sold right now from one of the biggest coin stores in Poland. They are asking 31 000zl for it. I paid about the same for mine. There has been a couple for sale in the past few years on popular auctions in Poland. Like WCN. That where I got the prices from.
Tomasz
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Valued Member
United States
357 Posts |
If this is how they counterfeit this coin then it will be very easy for NCS to detect that with a good microscope of some kind. This would be totally obvious and detectable. I have near heard of this kind of countereit that was not detectable.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
I have to adit that the 2 on the coin looks odd(it's crooked appearing to be rotated counterclockwise as compared to the other digits. Do you have a link to a picture of a known genuine piece?)
I can't believe you folks are letting NCS slide so easy on ignoring their financial obligations under their guarantee. How would you feel if you sent an 09 SVDB in and they slabbed it as genuine and then after someone questioned the authenticity they told you to send it back so they could recheck it and that if it did turn out to be fake they would pay you ten cents on the dollar for the fair market value.
Frankly after NCS comes up with that nonsense I don't think there would be any way I would send it back to them., because once they get it back in their hands you have lost all your leverage. They will crack it and then you either take what they are willing to give you or they just send the coin back and maybe refund your grading fee. If possible I would show it to ANACS and PCGS at a large show for a verbal opinion and if they say it is fake then you start talking about it on every form you can find. NCS will become much more anxious to make you whole in order to get that black eye off the market. And if they won't offer enough, I might be willing to top it. I love getting fakes in the major services holders.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
There is only one that I know of that is being sold right now from one of the biggest coin stores in Poland. They are asking 31 000zl for it. That's almost US$9000! Holy cow, I had no idea we were in this pricing atmosphere. May I assume you are in Poland? If so, it is possible for you to take this coin, still in the slab, to the dealer who is offering the other one for an opinion? In view of the value we are talking about here, I withdraw my recommendation to resend it to NCS, just yet - it will be necessary to establish this coin's proper value before doing so. Now, here is a problem. Having purchased the coin prior to submission to NCS, it will be difficult for you to prove that their evaluation has caused you damage, because it hasn't. The money was already spent. It would be a different thing entirely had you purchased the coin because of NCS' authentication. |
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Replies: 117 / Views: 11,748 |
Posted 02/10/2009 10:22 pm
