Counterfeits Of Cast Silver Sud - Any Pictures?

I think what I can add to this post is the tell-tale fakes realeswatcher has shown for the 1813 examples and it clearly appears in his link where we see weights DOWN to ~23 grams. I only have one in my collection but not sure of its diagnostics but its slabbed. Bought it a decade ago. Nevertheless I think we should be aware of this 1813 fake IMO, perhaps avoid plain edge pieces, buy only good weight pieces (26-27 grams - if weight is given), buy only in slabs (i.e., to be truthful so the piece can be sold even if a fake since it can't be weighed or argued with by the majority). These are DANGEROUS. I bought one in a slab - IMO that is enough. I think the silver value may be higher than Riddell's 88% value as this was a 19thC type analysis and the gold content has yet to be ascertained in the probable 0.1 - 1.0% range. I never analyzed mine as XRF assays or an SEM/EDS type analyses looking at its microstructure can't be achieved or done through the TPG plastic encasement. John Lorenzo.

No problem but keep the NGC or PCGS ticket in the flip. I did this with this coin and published it at the E.P. Newman Portal:

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/579875

SEM/EDS looks at the coins microstructure and is able to pick up the lighter elements such as S & Cl as it works in a vacuum whereas most XRF devices can analyze only metals as oxygen interferes with the detection of lighter elements in the Periodic Table. In this study I needed to detect sulfur. It showed that sometimes a non-homogenous surface can be mint made under the proper mint conditions. We can expect DIFFERENT microstructures between a silver issue from 1812, 1900 & 1950 and even from the same era and from different manufacturing operations. The microstructure and gold & silver assay values all together would give us a good picture. Since these devices to use or rent if you will are $350/hour it still prohibitive as it takes about an hour/coin to get the full picture - so to speak. I felt it an important enough study so I dropped the money into the analysis for this one coin. JPL

While looking for a garden variety Morelos copper 8R SUD, I came across this recent topic. It has appeared many times before.

The idea of a silver Morelos piece is kind of funny. It's reminiscent of the Maltese Falcon line "The stuff dreams are made of." Yes real ones exist, but no you can't have one because they cost a fortune. I had no idea that the fake silver Morelos supported a cottage industry. It's like a Mexican version of the 1804 dollar.

FWIW the 1813 copper 8R I found weighs 30.9 grams. Is this typical? I cleaned it so that I can see the details, but feel no remorse about doing it to a coin this ugly and cheap. History is my main interest, and that's not evident looking at a black disc.

Why worry at all? They're pretty common, and historically they were more like IOU tokens than money. The silver Morelos are the only ones with substantial value.

That said, if you had them slabbed I'd bet you could sell them for $100 each in today's market. They have appreciated their way out of the cull coin tubs. I'd compare them with the French revolutionary copper sols. Both very historic and very crudely made.

It looks like you might get well over $100 for nice specimens.

You misspelled $990,000. That must be pesos.

I did pesos to dollars at 20:1 in my head Hondo Boguss. That's one expensive escudo. And from a jewelry story?

Thought I would add another style of counterfeit to this thread. I saw one withdrawn from auction earlier this year and another on ebay recently.