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 Replies: 12 / Views: 1,656 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
  I acquired this coin and had some questions as information online is somewhat spotty. 1789-1791 was a transition period from the coinage of Charles III who died on 12/14/1788 to Charles IV, the son that succeeded him to the Spanish throne. The coins of this transitional period carried the portrait of Charles III but had Charles IV as the named monarch as dies with the engraved image of Charles IV arrived later than the news that Charles III had died and Charles IV was the new monarch. In the Peruvian Lima mint, the coins of 1789 and 1791 had two types: The 1789 Lima 8 Escudos coins had the engraved portrait of Charles III. But the first type has CAROL[US] III (Charles III's) name struck on the coin and the second type has CAROL IV (Charles IV's) struck name with the portrait of his father, apparently changed when news came of the death of Charles III and the coronation of the new king. The 1790 Lima 8 Escudos coins had the engraved portrait of Charles III, but there was only one known type where the King's name was struck as CAROL[US] IV (Charles IV). The 1791 Lima 8 Escudos coins still had the engraved portrait of Charles III, but the son's name on the coin was struck in the first type as CAROL[US] IIII (Charles IIII) and in the second type as CAROL[US] IV (Charles IV) as two distinct types. I searched for mintages for these coins in several sources, but while the mintages of Santiago Chile, Colombia and Mexico seem large and well documented, I was not able to find mintage figures for these transitional years at the Lima mint. I went to PCGS and they don't have online the census figures for the Peru 8 Escudos coins of this transitional period. NGC does have census figures for this period as follows:  NGC has only graded one mint state 1791 Peru Lima IJ coin with CAROL[US] IV (Charles IV) struck on the coin in MS62. This is the same type as the coin I acquired and is shown in this thread. NGC has also graded three mint state 1791 Peru Lima IJ coin with CAROL[US] IIII (Charles IIII) struck on the coin in MS61. But that is not the same type as the coin in this thread. Given the small number of mint state graded 1791 8 Escudos coins from the Lima mint, does that suggest that the Lima coins were minted in much smaller numbers than those struck in neighboring countries. Kindly let me know if you have a reference for mintages for 8 Escudos struck in Lima in 1791. The final confounding thing is that I have done extensive searches of sales and auction records for mint state 1791 8 Escudos coins from the Lima Mint and I could not find any. Is that unusual. Even when mint state graded coins are small in number I usually see one or two come up for sale in my searches but I could not find any. Does anyone know why that is? Any help with these questions is sincerely appreciated. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
Ooo, that's one sexy gold coin! This coin was from the Goldberg Sale #128 Lot 1541 and the only Mint State PCGS one I can find from that date and mint anywhere I searched as well. I was thinking that Daniel Sedwick may have had one or two over the years but his auction archive isn't searchable - yet. I have all of his catalogs and PRLs but it's a lot to dig through, eventually I will get them converted over to OCR and I will be able to search them, not sure how long that will take though, it's not a top priority. I've seen a few in AU and probably Unc but hairlined and cleaned down to AU standards or sea water damage, again details or AU at best. Most are in the VF to EF range with a smattering of AU coins, this is the first one I've seen in real mint state. This one is typical of how they are generally found with wear and adjustment marks: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/...6#lotDetailsand here is a really nice looking EF coin that almost looks mint state from the photos: https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=388327 There certainly are some nice ones floating around, and I don't think many have been submitted to TPGs as the larger percentage of collectors are likely not in the USA. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440Edited by westcoin
07/11/2022 01:07 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11880 Posts |
Thanks for your helpful post as always westcoin!
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Nice piece - is it now graded? Just the small marks by HISP which I think they'll forgive.
I think it can generally be stated that "overall", Santiago, Bogota and Popayan had higher output... though Lima 8E aren't typically "rare" (the minors are).
Like westcoin said, many pieces are not slabbed, as many of these surface out of Spain and to an extent Latin America. You'll need to dig through the archives from Aureo Calico, Cayon, Vico, etc. and sort of judge the amount of MS-level pieces of each year/ordinal "by eye". Use ACsearch, coinarchives, and Sixbid's archive search.
Another blanket statement - for most SILVER issues from the various mints for this Charles III, IV, IIII transition, I can't think of many instances where one type versus the others is especially rare.
PS - Almost all of Sedwick's auctions (except the first 4) are on iCollector and ARE searchable, but their search function is clunky. Sedwick typically will use the format "1790IJ"... and that's how iCollector wants you to search it (date/assayer, no space).
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Thanks. This one is in a PCGS MS61 holder.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
Quote:
PS - Almost all of Sedwick's auctions (except the first 4) are on iCollector and ARE searchable, but their search function is clunky. Sedwick typically will use the format "1790IJ"... and that's how iCollector wants you to search it (date/assayer, no space). I am currently working with the NNP on getting a bunch of auction catalogs they don't have scanned and on the site. Most all are posted in the restricted area for now, unfortunately due to copyright issues needing to be cleared. I do get anything I work on returned to me with the OCR in place which helps me.I never thought of using the iCollector database for searching that's a good tip and workaround for me in the meantime. I've had a few that didn't need the clearance like the C4 Cats and PRLs, I'm trying to include the PRLs with each catalog I can that I have one for, as that makes the archive even more valuable. PRLs = Prices Realized Lists "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
07/11/2022 9:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
I never thought of using the iCollector database for searching... Sedwick runs his live bidding through the iCollector platform - has since Auction 5. iCollector is really ONLY useful in terms of Spanish Colonial for searching Sedwick's archives (Steve Album also uses them for their live bidding - obviously they're not super heavy on Latin American). Here's the PCGS Census - your coin (from the recent Goldberg auction) is top pop: https://www.PCGS.com/valueview/peru...551054&h=popBTW, did some remedial review (as gold is not my specialization) and just to clarify... There is only ONE variety of 1791 Lima 8 Escudos - portrait of the old king Charles III with the ordinal "IV" in the legend. There IS NO 1791 8E with the portrait of Charles III and the ordinal "IIII"... or any with the correct portrait of Charles the 4th (which exists for the silver 8 Reales). Here are the ACsearch results: https://www.acsearch.info/search.ht...=usd&order=1 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
I am pretty familiar with iCollector as Kolbe & Fanning have also been using it for quite a long time and I bid often using the platform. I just signed up for Sedwick 's auctions and purchased his dad's and his updated Cob book - "The Practical book of Cobs" I'm currently devouring it now. I really like the Spanish, Mexican and Central/South American connection to our own Colonial times through coinage. Cobs and some of the Spanish coinage is still one of the few really old colonial coinage that is quite affordable, I'm finding. Even coins like this 8 Escudos are not priced out of reach for such an important and neat looking pieces of history. Many of the silver cobs are still super affordable as are some of the pillar reales. Here is a neat video I watched recently that Daniel Sedwick gave on Shipwrecks and Mexican Coins. https://archive.org/details/USMEX13...ipwrecks.mp4"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440Edited by westcoin
07/13/2022 12:08 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Agree that some Spanish New World issues are easier to collect relatively speaking.
Also interesting that NGC shows a separate type with "CAROLUS IIII" engraved but @realeswatcher can't locate a photo of one.
I wish I had the Cayon reference book for this period. I have the Friedberg reference book but it's not very helpful.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Um, yeah... just noticed you posted the census data for Lima 8 **REALES**!!! For the Lima gold 8E of these "transitional" years, these are the types that exist: 1789 - portrait of Charles the 3rd, ordinal "III" in legend 1789 - portrait of Charles the 3rd, ordinal "IV" in legend 1790 - portrait of Charles the 3rd, ordinal "IV" in legend 1791 - portrait of Charles the 3rd, ordinal "IV" in legend Pasted the NGC and PCGS census data (straight grades). Again, though, dozens of raw pieces out of Spain and the rest of Europe, so sift through the ACsearch archives and interpret accordingly.   Quote:
I wish I had the Cayon reference book for this period. Probably more widely referenced is the Calico book... and amazingly, they made a book whose prior edition was (I believe) 100 Euros GRATIS: https://www.aureo.com/en/comprarcatalogoClick the "Download" link... huge file (460MB), so best done on a full computer with a good high-speed connection. Edited by realeswatcher
07/13/2022 2:31 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Oops. I guess I was searching a little carelessly. Thanks for the free reference. That should come in handy.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Wow, going through the Aureo y Calico reference is awesome. What a great and beautifully illustrated reference. Thanks again.
In Spain there was a "ratface" type of the Carolus III portrait. Couldn't not laugh at that one. lol
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
07/13/2022 9:35 pm
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Replies: 12 / Views: 1,656 |
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Posted 07/11/2022 09:12 am
