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How Far Back Can We Go? Seventh Edition! Ended At 1380 Waiting On 1379

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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2023  08:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1603
two jetons that are linked to the siege of Oostende

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3559 Northern Provinces, mint of Dordrecht 'Deceitful forgiveness / Siege of Oostende'
OBV: fable 'the fox Reinaart and the rooster' (talking to deceive the other party), ALIVD IN LINGVA ALIVD IN PECTORE
REV: Oostende with habor, IN ADVERSIS VIRTVS - CIC IC CIII

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3558 Southern Provinces, mint of Antwerp 'Archdukes predict the surrender of Oostende'
OBV: Habsburg coat of arms ALBERTVS ET ISABELLA D G
REV: heavy weight to cruch the lobster (Dutch base of Oostende) TEMPORE ET LOCO 1603

the third jeton is from Zeeland, praising international trade

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3561 Northern Provinces, mint of Middelburg 'Promotion of international trade'
OBV: Threemaster in full sails IMPERATOR MARIS TERRAE DOMINVS (the ruler of the seas is the lord on land)
REV: 1603 Coat of arms Zeeland LVCTOR ET EMERGO
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
10/28/2023 08:11 am
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2023  08:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Amazing jetons, 1c5d7n5m!

France 1603, double tournois, Henri IV, Paris (A).

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34498 Posts
 Posted 10/28/2023  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I continue to really enjoy this stretch of OFEY. Here is a 1/24 Thaler from the Hildesheim Bishopric:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Belgium
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 Posted 10/29/2023  05:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1602

the jetons of today memorize Grave and Oostende, places that were of importance that year during the 80-years war. Grave is a small town that was in those days strategically relevant as a fortress, just south of the river Meuse, on the border of the provinces Brabant and Ghelders. After a 2 months siege by Prince Maurits of 2 months, Grave surrendered to the Dutch Republic. Oostende entered its 2nd year of a very long siege; sometimes it is called the Troy of modern times.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3541 United Provinces, mint of Dordrecht 'capture of Grave / sack of Luxemburg'
OBV: tetragrammaton in circle of flames, circle of clouds around SIT NOMEN. DOMINI. BENEDICTUM. CICICCII
REV: 8-line text HOS PROVOC POST TVMVLT GRAV CAP TRIIDE PRESS ET SVBMERSS VIII EQ TVRM CAES AGR LVX VAST SEN FOE PP F F

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3535 United Provinces, mint of Utrecht 'capture of Grave'
OBV: man lifts heavy millstone ARS GRAVE TOLLIT ONVS //below ORD TRA
REV: shovel with laurel crown INDVSTRIA ET LABORE CIC I CII
the image on the reverse is a pun: the verb graven in Dutch means to dig

Edited by 1c5d7n5m
10/29/2023 05:11 am
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 10/29/2023  05:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More fascinating jetons! It is interesting that on several of them, the Roman numerals M and D in the year are made from I and C (and C retrograde).

France 1602, 1/4 ecu for Bearn, Henri IV, Pau.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

The value 1/4 is indicated with the Roman numeral II - II.

This was a regional issue for Navarre and Bearn and it differs in several ways from the regular royal issues:
- The shield has arms for France, Navarre, and Bearn, not just France.
- After the regular titles FRANCiae ET NAvarrae REX, there is a ligature of D and B, standing for Dominus Bearniae, that is, Lord of Bearn, a title that Henry brought with him from his time as king of Navarre only.
- Normally the reverse has the inscription SIT NOMEN DOMINI BENEDICTUM, but here it is replaced with the Bearn motto GRATIA DEI SUM id QuoD SUM: By Grace of God, I am what I am.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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7990 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2023  08:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1c5d's jetons remind me how the importance of various places can change so much over time. While I think Oostende was still somewhat strategic in the 20th century wars, I'd never heard of Grave. Of course, by western standards, there wasn't any place of much importance in what is now the U.S. in 1602 (though I guess there was already a mint in Lima).

1602 Poland trojak (I think the retrograde 2 is actually more common than the normal 2):
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379









Edited by tdziemia
10/29/2023 08:10 am
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2023  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
great coins today, tdziemia and erafjel nice to see so many interesting pieces

the strategic importance og Grave was the fortress, with bastions on which cannon was installed on the banks of one of the big rivers (Meuse) that physically separated the Northern from the Southern provinces

possession of a chain of such fortresses created a line of defence that was difficult to overcome; very hard to cross a river with an army on foot or on horseback under artillery assault; the line of defensive fortresses created the walled "garden of Holland" - interestingly when you observe the Netherlands wich Google Earth, you can see the old fortresses of the 80-years war, great examples are Hulst (Zeeland) and Naarden (Noord-Holland)

indeed, the annotation of date on the jetons is curious, there were several posibilities like C I invertedC for 1000
the annotation that is most amusing is the chronogram, in which M, D, C, L, X ,V and I were engraved in a larger font than the rest of the legend, see the Gunpowder Plot jeton of 1605



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Spence's Avatar
United States
34498 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2023  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This 3 Pfennig was issued by the German Free City of Munster:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Keith67's Avatar
United States
6726 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2023  04:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1601 County of Schleswig-Holstein-Schauenburg: 1/24 Thaler

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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Belgium
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 Posted 10/30/2023  07:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1601

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

1601 Dugn.3521 Northern provinces, mint of Dordrecht 'Capture of Rijnberk, Siege of Oostende'
OBV: fortress of Rijnberk (small town fortified with bastions besides the river Rhine) above: tetragrammaton HANC CAPIMVS VIRTVTE DEI
REV: fortress of Oostende, supported by the sea (Dutch ships could enter during the siege): tetragrammaton below S.C. DEFENDIMVS ISTAM CIC IC CI

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

1601 Dugn.3518 Northern provinces, mint of Dordrecht. 'Inauguation of prince Maurits as count of Meurs'
OBV: Portrait of Maurice of Orange, standing MAVR PR AVR CO NASS CATZ MOERS MAR VER ET VLISS
REV: IE MAINTIENDRAI 12 AVGVSTI 1601

yesterday this piece from Zeeland (1602 - capture of Grave and defence of Oostende) failed to upload, I try one more time

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

1602 Dugn.3537 Middelburg 'capture of Grave and defence of Oostende'
OBV Hunter hunts hare, Falcon hunts songbirds PARTA TENENS NON PARTA SEQVOR
REV Coat of arms Zeeland GRAVATE LICET TROPHAEA OSTENDAM DVPLA inner circle 1602 CALC CAM RAT ZEL
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
10/30/2023 10:51 am
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2023  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking good!

Knocking on the door of the 16th Century!
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Spence's Avatar
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34498 Posts
 Posted 10/30/2023  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is another Livonian Schilling with only a three digit date: (1)1601:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Russian Federation
5186 Posts
 Posted 10/31/2023  04:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Knocking on the door of the 16th Century!
I'll nudge the 16th century door slightly open with a coin that connects the two centuries...

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379 How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

This is a Russian silver kopek of Boris Godunov, Novgorod mint, KG 217 (obverse 5 and reverse 4 on this page, which miraculously kept all its images), dated Pθ = (7)109 AM = 1600/1 AD (mostly corresponding to 1601; at the time the Russian new year started on September 1st).

Of course, as is easy to see, there is another strike - and that one appears to have been made with a different die pairing...

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379 How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Enough had been obliterated that it's harder to ID; my current best guess is that we're looking at KG 216 (obv 5 rev 2), with the same date.

I used to attribute it as obverse 2 (which would have been dated PH = (7)108 AM = 1599/1600 AD), but now that I look at the photos again I see a clear trace of the final theta of the date at 5h (at 9h in the pics of the other strike, under the O in Boris), which would, AFAICT, make it obverse 5 - the same as the other strike. Unfortunately I cannot currently examine the coin in hand to confirm.
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Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 10/31/2023  04:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1600

A new century with new hope for the Spanish Netherlands. Philippe II died two years earlier and during his reign hard times arrived. Decades of war and destruction, no-tolerance of calvinistism led to poverty and brain-drain towards the Northern Provinces. When his daughter Isabella, "infante" succeeded together with her husband Albrecht of Austria, new hope arrived in Flanders and Brabant. The following two jetons illustrate this hope:

Dugniolle 3487 Spanish Netherlands, mint of Antwerp 'On the new Century'
OBV: Habsburg coat of arms ALBERTVS ET IS ABELLA AN° 1600
REV: Albrecht & Isabella, holding the Belgian lion; above IVBILA LIGAVIT BELGICVM DEVS

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

this piece is remarkable as it portraits the two archdukes as standing figures (normally only the heads are shown with characteristic collars)

Dugniolle 3501 'Visit of the archdukes to the city of Mons'
OBV: classic portraits of the archdukes ALBERT ET ISAB PAR L GRACE DE DIEV
REV: winged hands holding under ears of grain above: AVSPICE CHRISTO legend: GECTZ DV BVREAV DES FINANCES 1600 hand

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

following their marriage and installation as rulers, the archdukes made trips ('joyous entry') to each of the provinces of the country.



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Belgium
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 Posted 10/31/2023  05:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1600 is also the date every kid in schools in the Netherlands learns during history class: in July 1600 prince Maurice of Orange led the Anglo-Dutch forces into a bloody battle against general Mendoza and Archduke Albrecht on the beaches near the town of Nieuwpoort in Flanders.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
print of two phases in the battle of Nieuwpoort, the Anglo-Dutch forces are on the left, the Spanish Netherlands on the right, source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nieuwpoort

The battle of Nieuwpoort ended the plans of the Dutch to capture Dunkirk to safeguard the channel from hostile (Spanish) influence. Heavy losses obliged the Dutch to fall back to Oostende (which they lost in 1604) and to Sluis (which they captured) in order to control trade routes on the North sea.

Though Prince Maurice had won the battle, it was a turning point that ended his "ten years of succes" in the war agains the Spanish Netherlands. Maurice was bitter for the heavy losses and angry towards his chief counselor 'raadpensionaris' Johan van Oldenbarnevelt who convinced/obliged him to undertake the dangerous mission to conquer Dunkirk.

Here are three jetons from the Northern Provinces Zeeland and Utrecht that memorize the victory of the Anglo-Dutch army

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3509 Province of Zeeland, mint of Middelburg 'victory of Maurits at Nieuwpoort'
OBV: coat of arms Zeeland, 1600 LVCTOR ET EMERGO
REV: trophee of arms MAGNAE RES ARMIS

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3508 Province of Zeeland, mint of Middelburg 'battle of Nieuwpoort'
OBV: coat of arms Zeeland, QVOS DIES VIDIT VENIENS SVPERBOS
REV: Army of Maurits (left) pushes back the army of Albrecht (right) HOS DIES VIDIT FVGIENS IACENTES 2 IVLII 1600 AD NEOPORTV

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3507, Province of Utrecht 'victory of Maurits at Nieuwpoort'
OBV: Army of Maurits (left) pushes back the army of Albrecht (right) HOC OPUS DOMINI EXERCITVM
REV: coat of arms Utrecht, CALCVLVS ORDINVM TRAIECTEN 1600

when standing on the beach of my hometown, Nieuwpoort & Oostende just miles away and visible on the right when looking towards the sea - Dunkirk is visible on the other side; so much history in this little piece of Flanders coast !



Edited by 1c5d7n5m
10/31/2023 05:47 am
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