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How Far Back Can We Go? Seventh Edition! Ended At 1380 Waiting On 1379

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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2023  04:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1594

After the horrible decades 1570-1590, the conditions of life improved in the United Provinces that revolted against Spain:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3343 Dordrecht 'improved financial situation of the United Provinces'
OBV: Arm from sky hold balance FIRMVM SERVANDI FOEDERIS VINCVLVM
REV: text CALCVLVS A RATIONIBVS PROVINCIARVM FOEDER INFER GERM HABITIS CIC IC XCIIII

meanwhile, the Dutch republic regained territory in the North and East borders

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3338 Dordrecht Capture of the fortress of Coevorden & the city of Groningen'
OBV: Strong oak ripped from the earth by soldiers
REV: COVORDIA OBSIDIONE LIBERATVR MOX GRONINGA BIMESTRI OBSI DIO LIBERTATI RESTITVITVR
CIC IC XCIV = MDXCIV = 1594

In the southern provinces, the situation was not good. A large number of mercinary troops remained in the country - these men needed food & wages (which often arrived too late from Spain) - so mutiny and plunder regularly occured.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3348 Antwerp 'Chamber of finances'
OBV: Coat of arms Habsburg GECT DV BVRREAV DES FINANCES
REV: Lady Fortuna sailing on a sphere in the sea, ship & rocks nearby VIRTVTIS COMES 1594

the image can be interpretated that the situation in the Spanish Netherlands were precarious, chances for a favorable outcome of the war being low

this interpretation is supported by another jeton from the same year ans same mint:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3344 Antwerp 'Miserable conditions in Brabant'
OBV: Coat of arms Habsburg G PO VR LA CHAM DES COMP EN BRA
REV: Distressed women between arms & burning houses VSQVEQVO DOMINE ANNO 1594

the verdigris & corrosion on the two last jetons add to a sad impression

our species (we chose to call homo sapiens) apparently does not have the intelligence to learn from history: the same tragedy has repeated itself over and over again during the centuries that followed, in Belgium, in Europe and in all other contitents
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mrwiskers's Avatar
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1780 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2023  06:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrwiskers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...Impressive, 1c5 ... nice coins & corollary ...
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34494 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2023  09:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are impressive!

Here is a 1/24 Thaler issued by the German Countship of Schaumberg-Pinneberg:


How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2023  03:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1593

On the southern front of the Spanish Netherlands, France was in continuous state of war, the cause being religious freedom, with the catholic league (supported by Spain) on the one side and the hugenots (supported by the Dutch republic) on the other side. Under Spanish military pressure, king Henry IV decided in 1593 to convert to catholic faith, as is memorized in this rare jeton from Zeeland (united provinces)

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3328 Middelburg 'conversion Henry IV to catholic faith'
OBV coat of arms Zeeland LVCTOR x ET x EMERGO 15 tower 93
REV Man tries to hold equilibrium on sphere, on the background the islands of Zeeland QVI x STAT x VIDEAT x NE x CADAT x tower x

the image on the REV is somewhat similar to Dugn. 3348 of yesterday

In Utrecht in the United Provinces, religious tensions subsided somewhat, as mentioned in this jeton:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3326 Utrecht 'Unification of churches in Utrecht'
OBV Dutch cities on river Rhine (the 'old Rhine') BELGIA 15coa93 LEX REGIT ARMA TVENTVR
REV Coat of arms Utrecht CALC RAT ORDINVM TRAIECT

finally, on the Northern front of the Spanish Netherlands, the siege of the important fortified town of Geertruidenberg on the river Maas in the spring of 1593, ended with a victory of Francis Vere/Maurits of Orange of the Anglo-Dutch coalition.

In Dugn.3324 the siege is compared to the capture of Mount Aornos by Alexander the Great; Dugn.3325 shows a more realistic map of the site. Nice detail on the OBV of both jetons is the semicircle of chained vessels on the river Maas, with the purpose to close the city from outside help. Another detail is the farmer on the fields between both armies, plowing business as usual.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3324 Dordrecht 'Siege of Geertruidenberg'
OBV: Geertruidenberg on a rock, showing Anglo-Dutch forces on land (bottom) and on the river (left) NEGATA TENTAT ITER VIA CIC IC XCIII MONS GERTRVDIS
REV: Army of Alexander, on the right soldiers climb the rock of fortress Aornos VIRTVS REPVLSAE NESCIA MONS AORNOS

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3325 Dordrecht 'Siege of Geertruidenberg'
OBV: Map of the siege, showing Anglo-Dutch forces on land (bottom) and on the river (left)
REV: GERTRVDIS BERGA AB HISP VINDICANT ORD CONFOED DVCE PRIN NASS IN CONSP EXERC HOST CIC IC XCIII


MONS GERTRVDIS = "mount"geertrudis (geertuiden"berg") is a peculiar name for the place, as it is as flat as the Netherlands can be.

interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege...nberg_(1593)
Edited by 1c5d7n5m
11/07/2023 04:15 am
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
191802 Posts
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2023  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am truly impressed by your collection of jetons, 1c5d7n5m!

Quote:
Dugn.3328 Middelburg 'conversion Henry IV to catholic faith'
...
REV Man tries to hold equilibrium on sphere, on the background the islands of Zeeland QVI x STAT x VIDEAT x NE x CADAT x tower x

I am trying to figure out the connection between Henry IV and the reverse (assuming there is one). Qui stat videat ne cadat - "he who stands should watch out not to fall", or something like that. Is that Henry standing there? Trying not to fall, as he carefully balances between Catholicism and Protestantism (or maybe unreliably wobbles, in the eyes of the Dutch)? Is it a Biblical reference to 1 Corinthians 10 (where the Latin statement above is verse 12), which speaks of the dire consequences for those who test the patience of Christ (by converting to the "false" doctrine)?
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34494 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2023  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@era, thank you for bringing up that intriguing question. As I looked again at those wonderful jetons, I noticed in more detail the "balance board" that the man is standing on. How funny that you can purchase similar items to this day as exercise equipment!

My entrant for 1593 is another Livonian Shilling. It has both an edge clip and an edge chip:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2023  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks erafjel, for your insightful comment


Quote:
Trying not to fall, as he carefully balances between Catholicism and Protestantism


yes, I think this is the interpretation: the person stands for Henri

the second half of the 16th century was full of religious troubles, not only in the Netherlands, but also in France and Henry IV was trying (like William of Orange before him) to find a balance in the battle between Calvinism and the Catholic church

the Dutch knew of course in 1593 the fate of William (he was assassinated nine years ago in his home in Delft) ; the jetonmaker perhaps feared but could not know what would happen to Henri IV in 1610

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hokiefan_82's Avatar
United States
3712 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2023  01:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fascinating recent contributions, thanks everyone! I'm particularly intrigued and impressed by the wonderful collection of jetons being presented by 1c5d7n5m and the history and explanations included with them.
Member of SPMC, FCCB, ANA and ANS.
My U.S. Classic Commemorative Complete Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/278741/
My U.S. Fractional Note Set: https://notes.www.collectors-societ...eSetID=34188
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2023  04:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1592

The "ten years of Maurice of Orange" led to substantial gain of territory of the United Provinces, especially on the southern border, in the region of the big rivers. The Spanish Netherlands therefore started a diplomatic effort to stop the war. This was refused by the United Provinces as we see in the jetons of today and tomorrow.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3301 Zeeland, mint of Middelburg 'Rejection of peace negociations'.
OBV Spanish soldier offers Dutch soldier a piece branch, but the latter points at a snake hidden between the green at his feet LATET ANGVIS IN HERBA (snake hidden in the herbs)
REV coat of arms Zeeland (with outspoken doublestrike) the usual legend of Zeeland (luctor et emergo) is replaced by NE TEMERE (don't be reckless)

the rare jeton below was minted on behalf of Philippe de Croy, duke of Aarschot, count of Arenberg, chief adviser of Philippe II (and before of Philippe's father Charles II). He was the leader of nobility in the Spanish Netherlands. Today, his former castle Arenberg, just south of Leuven, is now part of the University of Leuven.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3313 'Philippe de Croy, count of Solre'
OBV: Crowend coat of arms of Croy & Renty in the center Lamarque P DE CROY C DE SOLRE
REV: ship sails between the rocks with favorable winds BONA VICINA MALIS (good neighbor of bad) 1592

what is meant with this legend?: that evil is around the corner? that there is hope in bad times?


Edited by 1c5d7n5m
11/08/2023 05:58 am
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tdziemia's Avatar
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7986 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2023  07:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
latter points at a snake hidden between the green at his feet


Very interesting. We don;t hear this term much today ("snake in the grass" for a deceitful person), but in my parents' generation, it was still common usage. Interesting that it is so old.

A nice 1592 trojak struck in the Malbork mint:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34494 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2023  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and here is a Schilling minted at Malbork:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7986 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2023  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure of the reasons, but some of these mints opened in late 16th c. did not last long. I think Malbork was opened in 1584 under the previous king, and closed 1599 or 1600.
Same is true for Olkusz, also opened in 1580s, and I think closed in 1601. Lublin had an even shorter life.

For 1591, a trojak of the Polish-LIthuanian Commonwealth struck in Riga:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2023  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1591

Today another jeton illustrating the rejection by the Northern Provinces of peace proposal made by the Spanish Netherlands. The obverse shows a female figure in the "walled garden of Holland", the wall being the natural front made by rivers guarded by fortresses reconquered by the Anglo-Dutch forces. This defence could be enhanced by inundation, something that would later be called the Hollandse Waterlinie. The female represents liberty for Holland a female allegoric figure that shows on all Guilders and derivatives in the 17th ad 18th century. Comparable to Miss Liberty in the US and Marianne for the French Republic.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3288 Dordrecht 'peace talks rejected by the States General'
OBV: "Miss Liberty" talked into sleep, receiving olive branch while in the background a hostile army is marching to the fenced garden, the scouts are already trying to enter PAX PATET INSIDIIS
REV: the fenced garden is defended by soldiers from the republic and shoot at the the attackers TVTA SLAVS BELLO

It seems likely that the Spanish Netherlands wanted peace with the United Provinces for another reason than the row of successes of Maurice. Because of the danger of protestanticm in France, Philip II declared war to France and send Alexander Farnese to French Flanders.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3289 R Antwerp 'War with Henri IV'
VZ portrait of Philippe II DOMINVS MIHI ADIVTOR
KZ labyrinth with a tree in the middle FATA VIAM INVENIENT 1591
the latter image is so enigmatic that I started digging again, finding another example of an old embleme book from which the design was copied for a jeton, I'll post more about this example in another thead "Images that inspired the mint master" FATA VIAM INVENIENT fate will find a way (to a good end if you persevere) is an often used adagio from the classic literature

Finally a rare jeton from the Spanish Netherlands showing on the obverse the religious mission of Philip II which explain all the wars he waged during his long reign

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3284 R 'Chamber of finances Brabant'.
OBV: Hand supports an orb with cross CVNCTA IN DITIONE DEI POSITA (all are placed in the domain of God) 1591.
REV: crowned coat of arms Habsburg with golden fleece G POVR LA CHAM DES COMP EN BRA
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34494 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2023  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a 4 Cavalii from the Italian City State of Naples & Sicily:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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