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How Far Back Can We Go? Seventh Edition! Ended At 1380 Waiting On 1379

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Keith67's Avatar
United States
6722 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2023  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
if the date can be determined to the exact year from other criteria.
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/03/2023  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@keith12, my mistake - we're indeed still in 1597, I was not very attentive

@erafjel, very interesting what you write
as I understand, the french legends were used on jetons since the 15th century, (Philips le Beau) ; but French legends disappeared from the jetons and coins in the northern provinces after the revolt started in 1568; so this token from Utrecht is an outlier

also less common is a Dutch legend: so to correct my mistake of the year here is one example from 1597

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3426 Spanish Netherlands, mint of Brussels
OBV: St. Michael (patron of the city) fights the dragon LEGPENNINCK DER STADT V BRVESSEL (jeton of the city of Brussels)
REV: two hands on a Mercurius staff, CONCORDIA RES PARVAE CRESCVNT (the legend that would be used standard on coins of the Ducth republic)

Saint Michael fighting the apocalyptic dragon (like in the painting of Breughel, De val van de opstandige engelen) is a theme that appeared regularly on old coins minted in Brussels
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Russian Federation
5186 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  01:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can we show a ND coin but with a known date range e.g. Fyodor Ivanovich 1584 - 1596?
IIRC some ND coins had came through on their earliest possible dates, but it's definitely out of contest and should only be done (if at all) after a proper coin for the current active date. Might still be disallowed by the rules.
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ttkoo's Avatar
Australia
2577 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  01:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Keith12 and Jan'1M' That's all good, the rules is the rules.
Retained in the thinking barrel for now anyway
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  05:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1596

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugn.3402 United provinces, mint of Dordrecht 'triple alliance' (between France, England & Dutch Republic)
OBV: three soldiers shake hands on altar on which is written LIBERT PATR (freedom of homeland)
legend: COMMVNIS QVOS CAVSA MOVET SOCIAT (the common grounds of our cause)
mintmark: rose
REV: soldier point to ODIVM TYRANNIDIS (I hate tyrranny) written on a pillar CIC IC XCVI (1596) TITVLVS FOEDERIS (title of the alliance)

lots of propaganda and politics on less than 4 grammes of copper
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7988 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Poland 1596 trojak, Lublin mint.
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Between 1588 and 1600, Sigismund had trojaks struck in 9 mints across his considerable realm: Bydgoszcz, Krakow, Lublin, Malbork, Olkusz, Poznan, Riga (Livonia) and Vilnius (Lithuania) and Wschowa.

Apparently standardization was not yet vauled: there are slight differences in the portrait, abbreviations used in SIgismund's titles, and in the legends reverse. There also appear to have been differences in the skill levels of the engravers, with Lublin (which hadn't struck coins previously) being toward the low end.
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34496 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  9:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This Livonian 3 Groschen was struck in 1596 AD from a die containing a pretty hefty crack:

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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ttkoo's Avatar
Australia
2577 Posts
 Posted 11/04/2023  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that's a crack!
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Keith67's Avatar
United States
6722 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1596 The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 6 Groschen was struck in Malbork
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  04:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1595

Spain was involved in war on the two borders of the Spanish Netherlands: to the South in conflict with Henri IV of France and to the North against the United Provinces. After 1588 (failure of the Armada to invade England) most of the offensive effort of Alexander Farnese, general of the Spanish army, was situated in Northern France (Picardie and French Flanders).

Two examples below:

First a copper siege coin of 20 patards made in Cambrai to pay the French garrison that defended the city in 1595. The siege coin is typically hammered on one side with different dies. The central large die shows 9 and 5 around the coat of arms of France, legend: HENRICO PROTECTORE; on the left and right the face value XX P, below the coat of arms of ? if anybody knows that would be great

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Second piece is a jeton from Middelburg that memorizes the capture of the fortresses of Doulens and Le Catelet by the Spanish army. As we saw 2 weeks earlier in this thread, the Dutch supported the policy of religious freedom defended by Henri IV.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3372 Middelburg 'Massacre of Doulens / capture of Le Catelet'
VZ Hendrik IV attacked by bear, wolf, fox & snake EXPECTA DOMINVM VIRILITER AGE
KZ coat of arms Zeeland ET ILLE ROBORABIT CORTVVM

the third piece of 1595 praises the succes of Maurice of Orange to reconquer cities in the Northern border of the Spanish Netherlands.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

Dugniolle 3375 United Privinces, mint of Dordrecht 'Bravery and wisdom of Prince Maurice'
OBV Maurice depicted as Mars, standing QVAERERI (to be sought)
REV Maurice depicted as Pallas Athenae, seated ET TVERI (and to be protected) CIC IC XCV

funny detail are the birds on this jeton: woodpecker and owl


Edited by 1c5d7n5m
11/05/2023 04:07 am
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Keith67's Avatar
United States
6722 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Keith67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1595 The Duchy of Livonia
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2124 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  05:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another set of great jetons, @1c5d7n5m!

Quote:
First a copper siege coin of 20 patards made in Cambrai ...
below the coat of arms of ? if anybody knows that would be great

A well struck specimen, and beautiful in its simplicity.

The arms are of Jean de Montluc de Balagny, appointed governor of Cambrai by Henri IV. More about him here: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_...c_de_Balagny

Quote:
funny detail are the birds on this jeton: woodpecker and owl

Indeed, nice details in the composition. They are the traditional companions of Mars respectively Athena. The woodpecker can symbolize courage and motivation (among other things), the owl represents wisdom. So their presence underlines the good qualities of Prince Maurice.
Edited by erafjel
11/05/2023 05:18 am
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1c5d7n5m's Avatar
Belgium
1185 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  07:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks erafjel
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tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7988 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  08:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, nice insights on the virtues attributed to the birds! I never knew.

The 1595-1596 Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth coins (including Livonia which was under their rule) nicely demonstrate the mint variations I mentioned. Here is a trojak struck in Wschowa:
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379

@Keith's 6 groschen coin from Malbork goes at the top of the list for quality of execution (design details, elegance and uniformity of the fonts), Riga (Livonia) next, then this one, and my 1596 Lublin at the bottom (at least my opinion)
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Spence's Avatar
United States
34496 Posts
 Posted 11/05/2023  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great coins this morning. Here is a Double Tournois struck in the French Region of Combes.

How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
How-Far-Back-Can-We-Go?-Seventh-Edition!-Ended-At-1380-Waiting-On-1379
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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