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Trying To Locate Info On "Dill 11/17/1970" Coin Sales (Auction?)

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jimbucks's Avatar
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 Posted 11/02/2022  05:35 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Attempting to find information on previous sale of a coin I own. Past sale references Dill 11/17/1970, which I presume was an auction. Can not find any info, would appreciate any info on this reference.

Thank You.

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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 11/02/2022  07:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@jim, it might also be helpful for us to know more about this coin. Can you please share the denomination, date, grade, etc. thx. With that said, this could have been a private sale, in which case it is likely impossible to chase down anything else.
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 Posted 11/02/2022  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the coin and the reference to Dill. The coin currently resides in a PCGS PF-63 BN holder -- that's right, it's now certified as a proof.

I did a lot of research on the coin, but it's history came to an end with this reference to Dill.

Prior to PCGS holder, it was in a NGC MS-64 BN holder. As a proof, it is also a C-1 which is considered to only have only 5-7 in existence.


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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 11/02/2022  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok yes thx for adding this extra info. Based on what appears to be a lot # in that description, I agree it is most likely an auction from 1970. It is a long shot, but you might reach out to a purveyor of numismatic literature (like Kobe & Fanning), to see if they have an old catalog from this auction.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

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CarrsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 11/02/2022  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the strike it pretty weak on the upper obverse and lower reverse. ive never seen a proof Half Cent without fully formed stars. how was it determined to be proof?

not sure who dill is. is pretty common practice among eac people to write down shorthand for whoever they bought it from. might not have been a notable seller or sale.

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 Posted 11/02/2022  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
how was it determined to be proof?


That's a question for PCGS. BTW a year or two ago I contacted several experts at EAC, and from the photos (I have more) there was no clear conclusion as to whether the strike was MS or PF. If EAC has representation at the next Long Beach show, I would be happy to show the coin in hand.

My plan is a reholder to note the C-1 variety, then send to CAC.
Edited by jimbucks
11/02/2022 4:16 pm
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 Posted 11/02/2022  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
cool. good luck with it!

i think I heard that cac has paused submissions. they are starting a slabbing company.

be prepared for the possibility of getting it back as a mint state if you resub. a proof Half Cent should have wire rims and a full strike. I'm not making a determination one way or the other...just saying its a possibility.

i wont be at long beach but I'm sure several copper gurus will be there.

ed furhman is the guy you ought to find and show it to.
Edited by CarrsCoins
11/02/2022 5:06 pm
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 Posted 11/02/2022  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
be prepared for the possibility of getting it back as a mint state if you resub


Really? Doesn't PCGS guarantee the grade? All I would request is a reholder to state the variety at the same grade. Not a crack-out.

Here's another picture, showing some wire rims. BTW I contacted Ed Furhman about 18 months ago, and from the pics he thought it is an MS example, but not real sure.


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Edited by jimbucks
11/02/2022 5:27 pm
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 Posted 11/02/2022  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well, if they look at it again and decide it isn't a proof I dont think they would want to send it back in a proof holder. I'm not sure how they handle that sort of thing. I know they have a guarantee but I dont know the parameters and how it could be applied to something like this. it cant hurt to give them a call.

it looks like that coin was sold through stacks and described as a proof by them. they may also be worth contacting if it ends up being a business strike.

if ed thinks its an ms I would be inclined to agree with him. dude knows his stuff and just spent a bunch of time researching his Half Cent books.

----

its a super attractive coin. I love the Jules Reiver pedigree! I had the opportunity to take an ANA summer seminar class from him when I was a kid. David Perkins and Jules taught like 5 people about bust dollars. everyone else had these amazing high grade coins and I had a single nearly slick 1798. all you could see was the bust tip and a bit of the last digit of the date. it was great fun. I have a picture of us together that I got him to sign. one of the smartest and kindest people ive ever met.

i went through the EAC envelopes book double checked. didnt find any Dill.
Edited by CarrsCoins
11/02/2022 6:51 pm
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 Posted 11/18/2022  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bikergeek to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found some breadcrumbs on the Newman Portal: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/543468?page=17
I downloaded the correspondence between Jules Reiver and R. Tettenhorst of St. Louis, MO., and found the Dill provenance linked to a several coins that sold in the Heritage sale of Jules Reiver Half Cents and large cents on 1/24/2006.

Hitting Heritage and just typing "Dill 11/17/1970" gets 7 results from that sale in the "View Past Sale Prices" section.
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results...veTab-071515

That search shows your coin and six others that had the same mention of Dill. One of them has some added commentary:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/half-cents...n-071515-new

Heritage commentary from that 1793 Cohen-2 Half Cent linked above says "Many of the Reiver coins were housed in white two-inch square envelopes with the pedigree recorded simply as a last name and a date. We have attempted to identify these pedigree sources more specifically, but in some cases their identities have alluded (sic) us.
Ex: Dill (11/17/1970). Envelope Included.(Registry values: P8)"

So if Dill is elusive, he's probably just some guy, I think. And go back to broader google searches, where I find a link to the Numismatist from 1997 that has mention of a guy named Basil Dill from Chamois MO.
https://archive.org/stream/Numismat...ber_djvu.txt

The text format of that Numismatist link is hard to parse, but down in the section where his name appears, it appears to be obituaries from that year (1997). "K 161876 Basil Dill, Chamois, MO
(joined 9-93)"

Searching the googles again for Basil Dill of Chamois, I find him on Find a Grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial...basil-a-dill

His full name was Basil Adolph Dill. He appears to have been an ANA member from 1993 til his death in 1997. And he lived in Chamois, MO. I observe that Chamois MO is about 100 miles west of St. Louis. So I wonder, did Mr. Dill have friends in St. Louis? Specifically, was he a friend of R. Tettenhorst, with whom Jules Reiver had a close trusting relationship and correspondence (as linked above)? Note: I assume close and trusting because I saw in the document, Jules sent R. Tettenhorst a $5000 coin in the mail for his examination. I call that trust!

So, if I were any more intrepid than I am, I'd pursue these lines:
1. Try to find a link from Jules to Basil Dill (and his sister Cinnamon, and his brother Oregano, yuk-yuk)
2. Failing that direct linkage, see if anyone associated with Tettenhorst has any knowledge; maybe St. Louis area coin clubs or auctions
3. Taking more of a shotgun approach, ask the (older) members of the EAC community and the John Reich Collectors Society if any of them know the Dill name. (I'm a JRCS member and at one of the Zoom meetings earlier in the year they held a remembrance of Jules Reiver - many members knew him personally, and may just know others from Jules' acquaintance).

Have fun - and good luck!

- Sean
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 Posted 11/18/2022  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Impressive detective work!
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 Posted 11/18/2022  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thats awesome!
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 Posted 11/18/2022  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of info, my main objective to finding info on the Dill sale is if the coin was described at the time as MS or PF, since undoubtedly it was raw at the time.
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