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Pillar of the Community
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Pillar of the Community
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i agree with your attribution of the reverse. you ran a red line right through the date which is the key diagnostic area for the S-108 variety. could you post pictures that aren't edited and view the coin straight on instead of at an angle?
as far as I know there arent any known 1796 cents with a die crack like what you describe. the thing on your coin is not the same as the crack on LDS S-108. another data point is that on late die state S-108 the revers die has been reground and the right branch is completely separated from the ribbon knot. this is not the case on your coin. your coin is not terminal die state S-108.
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CarrsCoins: the placement of the 6 under that part of the drapery is seen on the S-107 and S-108 only, with that reverse. Can't be an S-107
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/27/2022 5:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
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thanks for the additional picture. it looks like S-106 to me.
my biggest tell is that the top of the 7 aligns horizontally with the top of the 1 on your coin. the top of the 7 is above the 1 on 107 and 108. 109 has compact date. 110 has the 7 above the 1. the 9 and 6 are closer on 111 than they are on your coin. S-79 is a liberty cap. thats all the varieties that share that reverse die.
im not certain about the thing you call a die crack. its not a die crack as far as I can tell. there arent any coins known with that crack. the reverse isn't the latest known state for that die and the obverse isn't the latest known state for that die. there are later die states known for both dies that do not have a crack there. if I were to hazard a guess I would say this coin was buried with another object pressed across it. as the environment ate away the copper there was a bit of something that protected that line across the bust.
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Pillar of the Community
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Yes, I know that no 1796 Draped Bust Large Cents have an obverse crack like that, and this one is all the way across the bust to the right field. The R in LIBERTY is tilted on the S-106 and B-E has a wide gap; E & T look out of place and the space between 1-7 is wider on this one.   Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/28/2022 3:56 pm
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CarrsCoins: Yes, that is a diebreak. It was seen in hand by two EAC/C4 people. It couldn't be a corroding coin making that line, as it's straight. The coin shows no other "damage" like that except for being porous.
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Bedrock of the Community
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My copy of penny whimsy says that S-110 and S-112 have a die crack joining the 7-6 in the date. I think I see that on this coin. --Looking at examples of S-110 it looks like the crack is very small and should be further down around the middle of the numbers so perhaps not what I see on this coin.-- I'm bad at attributing worn coppers.  S-110 has the U reverse and the S-112 has the V reverse. Details are too far gone in the reverse for me to tell anything to distinguish further. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/28/2022 12:51 pm
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@oldgrouchyguy - good luck with your coin. I hope it proves to be everything you want it to be.
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Numismatic student: that crack at the date isn't the same as on mine (wrong place); mine also has a very faint crack from the top left of the 7 to the hair. And, yes: the 1 and 9 are out-of-place re: the S-108 obv. die. Also: U reverse is the only Rev. '94 that has both the lowest outer leaf and the right wreath stem pointing to the right foot of A2 in America
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/28/2022 5:04 pm
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fwiw: I think the obv. die broke immediately (see how sharp the profile to the breast is, and the profile from the breast-to-bust isn't? no resistance at the anvil die-I have a 1911-D cent that illustrates this), and was repaired to be the 108 obverse. That's the closest of any '96 DB Rev. '94 obverse to this one. So, either it has to be new die state of the S-108-which has already been opined here by a respected contributor as a big No, or it's a new obverse die. What else can it be?
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/28/2022 5:08 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
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This coin is enigmatic
Obverse die is more diagnostic of 108 imo based on HWH, 6 vs drapery line, B-E-R spacing, R left base is not slanted
Date looks a bit off for 108, particularly alignment of 7/9
I looked through the catalogs I have on hand (Reiver, Rasmussen, Holmes, Robinson) and the Reiver 108 is LDS but has no die crack.
It might also be a planchet defect and not a die crack.
Either way the worst you could have is still an R4 so I would be quite ok with it regardless of it being a 106 or 108.
The thing about early copper is that new discoveries are still being made 220+ years after the coins were minted, including previously unknown die states and even die pairings. A lot of things have been discovered, and researched, but not everything.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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paralyse: I don't think it can be as S-106, as the R in Liberty shows, it is punched at a slant. Same with the S-108, but not as dramatic. The R is pretty much parallel to the E on this one. That is a diebreak across the chest, and it meanders out into the field, and maybe goes to the top of the 6. I tried to reconcile it to be an S-108, but just couldn't do it. Thhe E is balanced right on top of the hair, without the gap seen on the S108. As pointed-out before, all VLDS S-108 reverses show grinding. This coin doesn't show that, and is in an earlier state.
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/28/2022 11:34 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
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I can't reconcile it 100% with any known die pairing for rev 94's.
The corrosion may be affecting some things as far as appearance, but I just don't know.
I'd stick it in a Kraft, call it a 96 rev' 94 no s/n, and into the box she goes as a curiosity.
If you get a chance to go to EAC in '23 please bring this coin for show & tell, it would be valuable to get some opinions from other EAC members who can handle the coin in person and have many more years experience than I do.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
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Look at the A2 in America: it's the only Rev. '94 that has the right stem and the lowest right outside leaf both pointing to the right stand of A2
Back in the day, I co-chaired a couple of EAC National Conventions...
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
12/29/2022 12:07 am
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So what conclusion have you already made along with the EAC/ C4 folks that saw it? A new NC variety?
Glad you are that EAC connected; chairing a Convention is hard work as I know from EAC '19 in Dayton.
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Replies: 17 / Views: 3,517 |
Posted 12/27/2022 5:01 pm
