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 Replies: 29 / Views: 2,681 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
Would repolished dies and a later die state show such sharp fully split stars in the obverse?
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
When dies are polished to remove evidence of things such as clashes and die breaks, the devices and legends may be recut at the same time. This is very common on Morgan dollars, and I'm not an expert on Half Cents by any means but I would imagine the same is true. I don't know if it's authentic (that is also not within my wheelhouse) but comparing high grade examples of the M2.0 die state for this coin, the sharpness of the devices is not dissimilar. That being said, the right side stars on your example are fully struck, which is a notable difference vs. other examples and warrants further investigation by an expert. See, for example, this coin from Heritage (NGC MS67BN, a true stunner) - note the denticles vs. your example.   (Above photos property of Heritage Auctions) Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
02/04/2023 09:54 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
The edges of Half Cent in the reverse look sharp like in the coin I have. The impression is a much better match than the other examples I've seen. If they had used a planchet with the correct diameter and weight, it would be very difficult to discern its authenticity. Thanks for the legwork. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I love a good mystery!
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
i think the whole set up would have been the wrong size. the rims on your coin look full and the devices are struck up to the point where it seems like the blank was the right size for the coining press. if it were an undersized blank the coin would not have struck up fully. I'm thinking this is a scaling error from a CNC made die. probably made to fit existing equipment rather than trying to be a precise copy. one of the biggest benefits to collectors is that it is seldom worth the money to create perfect counterfeits. perfect counterfeits cant be mass produced accurately because of how the die progressions have been cataloged. you cant perfectly replicate multiple die events (cracks, chips polishing, repunching, reengraving) cheaply and in bulk. im pretty sure the dot on the t is actually on a lot of Half Cents. I think it was a chip in the hub rather than in the die. any chance we could get some pictures of the edge for this piece? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
Who's Gary? And yes, my Father (who's name is Jack) named his kid Jack...
See nothing out of spec to suspect this is a fake; I also reviewed it with my Friend Ed Fuhrman.
Edited by burfle23
02/04/2023 7:23 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
The dangers of posting while working = mixing up names! I edited my original post to correct the mistake last night but cannot edit the others since I didn't post them.
If you don't see anything out of spec, that's pretty much the gold standard.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
02/04/2023 7:28 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Thanks for taking a look. When I heard Gary I thought Jack might be a nickname like a former POTUS used. Btw, I live near the lake where this former Prez is purported to have hosted his former secretaries and girlfriends.
In regard to this coin, what about the diameter and weight? Those seem way out of spec.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/04/2023 7:40 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Great discussion - over my head, but most enjoyable.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@CC I ended up returning the coin so it is unavailable for edge pictures. Appreciate your helpful comments. @burfle23 Thank you for taking a look and having Ed take a look. I thought that the argument for the smaller diameter being within tolerance was unconvincing. Since about 1828, the Mint employed a close collar derived from the Boulton & Watt design to strike coins and by 1853, this setup would have made an undersized planchet expand to 23mm. I can't see an explanation of how this could have come out of the Mint at 22.44mm and 5% underweight in 1853. 23mm and 5% underweight would make sense if the planchet was undersized. Here is an article I found about the use of the close collar at the Mint. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/804/The close collar setup was developed by Matthew Boulton with his partner Watt, the famous Industrial Revolution engineers who mass produced the Boulton penny at the Soho Mint in Birmingham. By 1828, Boulton's collar setup was in place at the mint making the diameter of copper coins uniform. https://www.copper.org/education/hi...elopment.phpA deviation in diameter of 2.4% would immediately be seen or felt when stacking coins. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
@numismatic student I am curious how many Braided hair Half Cents you have measured? Glad you could return it- I would be interested in purchasing it for review myself. Edited by burfle23
02/06/2023 9:30 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
I own 38 Half Cents. 9 are the braided hair variety. Most are classic head. Likely a drop in the bucket for your friend and you. But I still can't understand how the diameter of coins struck in a close collar could be out of spec by 2.4%. I placed this coin in a capital plastics holder with a slot for the braided hair Half Cent and it fell right through the hole. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Also the question posed by CarrsCoins still stands. The smaller diameter coin at 22.44mm, if it was struck at the mint, how is it possible that the entire 23mm design fits perfectly within a 22.44mm coin? Shouldn't a 23mm coin design overflow the 22.44mm diameter of this undersized coin?
Instead we have a coin that appears to have full rims and a full interior design. How is that possible at a 22.44mm diameter? It is only possible if the mint dies shrunk to accommodate a full coin design at a diameter of 22.44mm.
We know that the mint did not produce such shrunken dies and it only makes sense that someone outside the mint produced these dies without the correct dimensions and used them to produce fakes.
In a close collar, if this coin had been struck at the mint with an undersized planchet, the small planchet would have expanded to 23mm under the pressure of the press and the result would have been a 23mm, thinner than spec underweight coin with full rims and a full design. That's not what we have here. We have a 22.44mm wide coin.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/07/2023 12:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
517 Posts |
@numismatic student how can I get my hands on it? "The average diameter of the Braided Hair Half Cents are 23mm. This is about 1/2mm smaller in diameter than the Classic Heads or Draped Busts. The weight averages about 84 grains. Of course, I don't have the benefit of seeing this coin in hand, but visually from the photo it looks okay. There are some die defects that were in the master hub used to produce the dies for this coin, and I see both of them present, so that's usually a good sign. The strike looks normal to me as well. If the planchet was undersized, it is doubtful the coin would strike up fully. It does not look like one of the Russian made fakes. Those are pretty obvious with mushy details and no dentils. Without seeing it in hand, that's the best I can do". Edited by burfle23
02/07/2023 07:22 am
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Replies: 29 / Views: 2,681 |
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Posted 02/04/2023 09:53 am
