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2022 P Lincoln Cent. (A Look At The Tip Of The Nose.)

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Petespockets55's Avatar
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 Posted 02/27/2023  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Thought you would get a kick out of this. ...

That's too funny.
Thanks for sharing the link.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2025  07:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just found this thread (sorry!) and I have a question:

How are these features to be distinguished from Design Berms?

https://www.error-ref.com/design-berms/
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-makecents-'s Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2025  08:55 am  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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How are these features to be distinguished from Design Berms?
Pete, I read about these "Design Berms" several years ago while sifting through Error-Ref and have never seen them referred to, when looking at errors posted here or elsewhere. I have always wondered about them, as there is not much explanation about them. There are no examples shown from the U.S. either, which I thought was odd.

All that being said, to me it looks different, the design berm seems to be more of an extension, outside of the design and the OP's coin shows what looks more like it cuts into the design. I also think the design berm looks to have an inside and outside to it, with a raised area in between, almost like a rope. Good thought though, had not considered it, seeing how it is never brought to the forefront in conversations.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2025  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the OP's coin shows what looks more like it cuts into the design


As far as I know this describes one characteristic of Machine (Strike) Doubling.

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 Posted 11/28/2025  09:26 am  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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As far as I know this describes one characteristic of Machine (Strike) Doubling.
I agree and am not 100% sure that is not what is going on here. There have been instances where there were a few coins with identical or very close to identical MD before the press corrected itself. To me the "Bern Design" just looks much different.
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:00 am  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have looked at over 50000 nickels, and it is very rare to see a design berm. My guess is that the U.S. technology for making dies prevents that particular problem from developing. You probably need an interaction of minting press, die technology, and planchet hardness to produce a design berm vs. something much more typical like Die Deterioration Doubling or progressive indirect design transfer.
Edited by Brandmeister
11/28/2025 10:00 am
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:03 am  Show Profile   Check Decaf94drew's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmm the things go on with the nose/ forhead ive always thought of being some kind of MD or DDD or some kind metal flow from being struck. When in conjunction with the die flow lines near the base of the bust thats where I would personally say meh to much a hassle to try and prove or disprove anything more than some kind of die fatigue (ive been told too many times on things similar it was something other than true doubling to even credit them as a form of legit doubling anymore ) never been something I was interested in keeping and I probably wont keep em until something is posted on one of the variety sites but thats just me and I could totally be missing out on something, that's my opinion at least
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Several are listed and called "Trenches" - presumably from the engraving reflecting minor design changes:

ODV-012, ODV-013, ODV-015, ODV-017

http://varietyvista.com/25%20What%2...0Changes.htm
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the interest and comments Pete.
Let's see if I can dust the cobwebs out of my head and put together a coherent reply.

To me, this design anomaly doesn't look like design berms, as described at Error-ref. (Except for maybe the forehead.)
"Definition: A raised line or shelf that partly or completely encircles a design element. The berm is usually associated with large central design elements, like busts and buildings. Peripheral elements, like letters and numbers, are rarely affected. Unlike conventional forms of Die Deterioration Doubling, the berm is clearly demarcated from the normal design. Berms appear to develop quickly and prematurely, as there are seldom any other signs of Die Deterioration, such as flow lines and orange peel textures."

MD was my first thought for the tip of the nose because it was "flat". The secondary vertical contour of the eye and forehead got my attention next, but they weren't "flat". I didn't notice the doubling inside the ear until I had quite few examples and checked there to possibly rule out the MD.

To re-cap, the secondary doubling on these coins is odd. It was identical and repeated on the 13 examples sent to Will Brooks. He confirmed the doubling and identified three different die pairs based on markers.

There are some existing DDO's (the 1935 example I highlighted earlier in the thread) which have doubling that is very similar to MD.

I remember being surprised that I didn't come across more examples after the initial finds, but I believe this coin represents an example of Master Die Doubling (because of the different die pairs).

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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:40 am  Show Profile   Check Decaf94drew's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trenches thats a good way to put it, stuff like that just kinda left my radar for things I'm looking to try and understand on coins. Not real doubling not of interest to me I just look and try and disprove things as doubling on coins and if it passes all my tests the coin is of interest and the things that are questionable I just squirrel away, for the most part. Stuff like those little trenches always look interesting sure but not enough for me to personally embark down that rabit hole on
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:47 am  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Several are listed and called "Trenches" - presumably from the engraving reflecting minor design changes:
Pete, those are references to dies that have been manipulated in some way by the mint workers. It is my understanding that the Design Berms are from an unusual Die Deterioration that is affected by the central part of the design breaking down the die before typical Die Deterioration occurs to the rest of the die.
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Pete2226's Avatar
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 Posted 11/28/2025  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe this coin represents an example of Master Die Doubling (because of the different die pairs).


Do you have a diagnostic or criteria in mind that would rule out the possibility of it being Working Hub Doubling?
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Petespockets55's Avatar
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 Posted 11/29/2025  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Do you have a diagnostic or criteria in mind that would rule out the possibility of it being Working Hub Doubling?

I do not. (Cob webs-1, PP55-0 )

Working Hub Doubling may be more likely since I haven't come across, or seen others post examples with matching doubling.
(As I understand it, Master Die Doubling would tend to produce a lot more examples, similar to the Master Die Doubling in1972).

And thank you for taking a look and adding your insight. Your depth of knowledge is always appreciated.


Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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