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Lincoln Cent Questionable Color And Red To Red/Brown Grading

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captainkurt's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2023  08:56 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add captainkurt to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Sorry about the multiple coins here. I wanted some variation so we could get the most information possible.
We can use the below abbreviations
To attempt to have a clear conversation
TL. TR
BL. BR

I am curious if cents become undesirable if the color seems questionable. Do any of the cents pictured seem to have been altered? I am just diving in on my education regarding the grading of color on cents.

Any information on how to determine Red to Red/Brown color or why some cents get a brassy color would be appreciated. Basically any and all knowledge you can impart when looking at cents as to identify undesirable market color from desirable market color would be greatly appreciated.

Feel free to post your own photos for reference as well!

EDIT - Slightly adjusted photos white balance &" Added the reverses

Lincoln-Cent-Questionable-Color-And-Red-To-Red/Brown-Grading

Lincoln-Cent-Questionable-Color-And-Red-To-Red/Brown-Grading
Edited by captainkurt
02/04/2023 11:31 pm
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panzaldi's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2023  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the line between RB and RD is very subjective in situations where its not apparent immediately upon viewing the coin.

RD is defined as 95-100% red
RB a minimum of 5% both sides

When its not readily apparent because of the amount of red remaining we have a circular coin and its not easy to judge what qualifies as 5% and both sides must exhibit that.

personally I think toning makes a difference. for example on your posted coins

TL does not exhibit any red - color BN

BL may have a small amount of red however the brown overwhelms this coin. there does not appear to be the obligatory 5% so it would also pull a BN imo

TR appears to have enough red undertones (based on your photo) to qualify for an RB however you would need the reverse to determine this.

BR no red noted - BN

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datadragon's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2023  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Color designation only applies to uncirculated copper coins. All circulated copper coins are assumed to be brown. Red refers to the hue of fresh copper, as it would appear just after the coin is struck. Because of copper's propensity to darken over the years, only very small fractions of old copper coins are found with coloration that would numismatically be deemed Red. According to PCGS grading guidelines, the following defines the Red designation for a copper coin: PCGS designated Red (RD) for copper coins that grade MS60 or better and show 95% or more of their original mint-red color.

PCGS Director of Education Mike Sherman explained for grading that a full red copper coin will display 95% or more of its original color, while red & brown will display anywhere between 5% and 95% of its original red color which should help in self grading some of them. Brown (BN) (Less than 5% of original red color visible). On all Mint State and Proof copper coins (Half Cents, Large Cents, Small Cents, Two Cent Pieces and some patterns) one of the three color ratings is assigned.

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/cop...ading-768388
http://goccf.com/t/418624
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 Posted 02/04/2023  1:35 pm  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As to the color, perhaps if you were looking for exceptional examples or to grade by ngc it would be of value to look for these desirable market color so some more general info I collected here. Eye appeal is the most subjective attribute of a coin, but there are many standards shared by numismatists. Exceptional eye appeal may include attributes such as vibrant, colorful toning; intense luster; or in the case of Proof coins, especially strong cameo contrast.

Fewer than 1% of the coins graded by NGC get a Star rating. The star is like a beauty pageant for coins, to decide if they have "exceptional eye appeal." The grade designation is not as important as how the coin looks compared to others in its grade. NGC admits that these evaluations can be subjective, but If any one of the quality-control graders objects to a Star designation, it's over. To be considered for a Star Rating, a coin must first meet certain quality standards. It must have a full vibrant luster and be free of any distracting or obvious planchet irregularities, and display no bothersome spots or blemishes. Coins submitted for stardom can be either "white" (untoned) or toned. Toned coins face even more hurdles. The toning must be considered attractive, with good contrast if there is more than one tone present. It also must have full luster unimpeded by the toning. Toned coins can be of a single color or multicolored but cannot have any areas that are dark brown, approaching black. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/806/
Edited by datadragon
02/04/2023 1:39 pm
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2023  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These all look AU to me. The 21-S looks cleaned.
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captainkurt's Avatar
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 Posted 02/04/2023  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add captainkurt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanx for the info. It seems red and red/brown are not as much of a concern as I thought. The real concern for my education before I start to venture into purchasing and upgrading my cents are coins with questionable color.

For instance indiangoldeagle pointed out what I suspected on the 21s (BR coin). Not only does it have a shine to it but it has a brassy color. I can pick out cleaned coins on silver and cents that have noticeable hairlines but with color alterations in copper coinage there is lacking in my ability to make judgements.

What are the red flags for undesirable color? What are the signs for altered color on copper or bronze coins? Is this just going to come with experience or can we post some examples of coins that have been altered/cleaned or otherwise treated in a way to make them not market acceptable.

Here is one I find color questionable

Lincoln-Cent-Questionable-Color-And-Red-To-Red/Brown-Grading
Lincoln-Cent-Questionable-Color-And-Red-To-Red/Brown-Grading
Edited by captainkurt
02/04/2023 11:26 pm
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 02/05/2023  01:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 21S stands out as strange but this issue is well known for being off in color. I've held in hand many MS examples that looked cleaned but they are just generally dull coins. Full red coins with any cartwheel luster are graded high for the series but they usually suffer in the strike department. Personally, I'm a little more forgiving of the color on 21S's.

That said, the brown patch around LIBERTY could be an indicator of a cleaning at some point. This coin looks like it could be an AU, hard to tell with small pics. I prob already graded this one, it looks familiar. :)
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 02/05/2023  01:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Here is one I find color questionable


Most likely an old, old cleaning, it just too dull.
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captainkurt's Avatar
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 Posted 02/05/2023  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add captainkurt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I prob already graded this one, it looks familiar.


Probably! I am the beneficiary of a overly generous trade with our friend Grospoission. Its been such a pleasure getting to know him and I will be posting more soon in the trading forum as I would like to pass his generosity forward.

Thank you for the reply Badthad, I expect I will be dipping my feet into upgrading some of my cents now. As with the other series I am working on I will start with the more common ones till I try and fill any of the holes.

I would still like to see other examples of off color, altered color, or cleaned cents if anyone has any to post. Thanx!
Edited by captainkurt
02/05/2023 09:41 am
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 Posted 02/05/2023  12:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Probably! I am the beneficiary of a overly generous trade with our friend Grospoission. Its been such a pleasure getting to know him and I will be posting more soon in the trading forum as I would like to pass his generosity forward.


GP is certainly generous and an excellent person all around! Most of what I've been posting is a result of his generosity and outstanding character! His dedication to the hobby and desire to learn is unmatched by anyone that I've ever met.
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 Posted 02/07/2023  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smat45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@GP...His being an educator is surely seen in his continued pursuit of asking and finding...
A true researcher...
Love to follow his posts!
smat
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