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 Replies: 39 / Views: 4,676 |
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Hello. New here, from Europe, joined because I'm looking to add some old US coins to my american coins collection. This seems the finest forum to talk about those. My first north american one was the largest and shiniest I found on sale in town. Now that I've looked it up I fear it wasn't the best choice. The most popular big coin is the St Gaudens? I got this Liberty variant because there was also a nice smaller one available. Wondering whether to keep it or resell and try to get a St Gaudens. I'm not familiar with the numeric MS* system for grading, this one was just 'mint condition' here. I'm also a bit fearful about fakes. These are types I have no experience with. Should I have this coin checked professionally or does it seem good? Weight is 33.47g. How might it be graded if I paid to one of those companies for some certification? NGC or PCGC are the trustworthy ones?   |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Your images show a genuine high-end, common-date Mint State piece. Assuming there are no problems then MS64 seems likely and maybe even 65. The reverse shows possible signs pof polishing but there's no way to tell from images (in this case). The weight is perfect. My question is your statement: Quote:
I got this Liberty variant because there was also a nice smaller one available. You mean a lower denomination like a $10 or $5 piece correct? 1904 is the most common $20 Liberty out there, but in MS65 it becomes far more valuable. What did you pay for it? Grading is totally your call. NGC and PCGS are both excellent TPG. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Stunning example, at least in these images.
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Pillar of the Community
 Portugal
655 Posts |
Thank you very much. That's a relief, it was so 'mint state' for a 100+ years coin that I got a bit worried over fakes after buying it. Bought it for 20% over melt value, thought I was getting a bad deal. But US coins don't show up frequently here, might take months or years to find others. 15 years ago banks still offered for sale french and swiss francs, mexican pesos... Now the gold buying people want bars. Most of those bullion coins sold to gold dealers here probably get molten and recast as bars. US coins seem to be considered bullion also. The smaller one was a $5, which I also got. That one has nicks from being together with other coins so I wasn't worried. This one has only two tiny nicks in the highbrow and the more visible one next to the eye. Otherwise it has that slightly frosted mint look in the fields, with some brighter spots. Contact marks? I think they show above the arrowheads. I'm sure no one cleaned or polished it, has some odd black dirt under the '1'. People here in recent years are averse to cleaning coins. Tomorrow, with good daylight, I can take a photo of the smaller one to ask about also. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36575 Posts |
Unable to tell from these photos if the coin is genuine. If you are close to a coin shop, have them put it on their Sigma tester to make sure it has the correct amount of gold. There are some very deceiving counterfeit Lib $20's out there that look real but are off in the gold content.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
557 Posts |
Follow the advice of IGE. IF legit, this coin is in very nice shape and may grade MS65 which would mean you got it for a decent price.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Almost looks too good to be true.
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Moderator
 United States
187702 Posts |
 to the Community! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1758 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18640 Posts |
I'm wondering if its an impaired proof?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
Almost looks too good to be true. Quote:
I agree with Coinfrog. Not sure why someone would say this. The OP paid market price for a top tier certified MS63 piece of the series/date. For a raw common date which hundreds of thousands are known to exist in Mint State condition it's just an okay deal. My main concern would be the reverse has been lightly polished and it's a details piece. I've owned many raw Double Eagles over the years and this one looks like nothing unusual. Edited by BH1964
02/06/2023 2:09 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Well, I also thought the coin looks too good to be true. I was wondering if it was proof, but only 98 of those were minted compared to 6.3 million business strikes. The only hit I see in the entire coin is to the right of LIBERTY's eye. This coin does not look like it has ever been in contact with another coin. Certainly it does not look like an MS63 business strike having rolled around in a bag full of other heavy, soft-metal double eagles.
If authentic, the coin looks every bit gem from what I can see. If it is proof and gem, then you've won the lottery. Proof gems are worth north of $100K.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Looks fine to me, but I'm not an XRF machine, either
Color and surfaces look appropriate
Looks MS64, good shot at 65
I think someone stated earlier that 1904 is one of the most common dates for this coin and series, which would explain the high state of preservation, especially if it was never put into circulation.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Hi again. Thanks for all the comments. That would be a first for me, finding a rare coin :) But I don't think it's proof, or at least it wouldn't be if it were an european coin. Here the late 19th century 'proof-like' coins have the frosted look on the raised surfaces. I guess it was the same with north american coins of the era? In this one it's the flat fields that look a bit 'frosty'. My phone camera doesn't seem to like the shine on this coin at all, can't get a better photo now at nighttime. The best I can offer is a slanted photo which highlights the imperfections. But I also had a look now with a little portable microscope I used when shopping for greek or roman coins. Showing a photo through it also, the area around the Y of twenty. The spots on the surface are very minor hits that disrupt its pattern, so I'm sure it wasn't polished. The surface is original. I spent some time in the weekend learning a bit about these series of american coinage. The PCGS pages were most helpful. But I didn't even consider the 'PL' portions, shows what I still don't know. Do please tell if this surface is not the usual one. And today I visited the coin shop of the dealer who sold me those two coins last week. He told me their recent history, a few half eagles and double eagles were sold to him together with a roll of british sovereigns. The roll said 'Credit Suisse' and the seller told him they'd been bought by his grandfather some 50 years ago in Switzerland and spent all the time since in a safe deposit box. The big double eagles in the group weren't part of a roll but wrapped individually in paper. That may be why the have few contact marks. But don't think Credit Suisse in the nineteen seventies would be picking the best ones from its vaults to sell wrapped to the public looking to buy bullion. Perhaps the former owner had an interest in numismatics and bothered to pick good ones? No way to know now. I showed him the PCGS population and price pages. Suggested he should have them graded and sold accordingly. But he won't stand for the delays involved in that process. This grading of coins isn't popular here. So in the end I left with a couple of St. Gaudens. Had considered swapping back this liberty head to get that more famous type. But with the information I got since, decided that having both was a better idea!   Just compared the flat fields of this one with the 1923 Saint Gaudens I bought today, also mint in mint condition. It was easier to photograph than this one. Seen with the microscope the fields of the 1923 mostly lack that pattern above. Something like it appears only in a few areas. Were those coins called proof-like simply the first coins coming out of good dies, before they got worn? Edited by jecz79
02/06/2023 8:53 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
The new photo still shows superb coin surfaces. Most business strike $20 double eagles show contact marks from being in close proximity touching one another. Any touch from another heavy double eagle would cause a visible mark on its soft surface. Your coin's surfaces look watery and spectacular. The microscope image shows the die flow lines completely unmarred by any hits nor imperfections.
A proof coin designation does not imply a die state or condition, but an intentional process that was conducted to strike special presentation coins. This process entails polishing the dies and striking the coin multiple times.
I think this coin appears real from the additional photos and is worth much more than the 20% premium you paid.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/06/2023 10:01 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 39 / Views: 4,676 |
Posted 02/04/2023 10:28 pm
