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 Replies: 39 / Views: 4,722 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Portugal
669 Posts |
Thank you. Your description of proof coins matches what I know of the current process, and what I think The Royal Mint in England first did back in the 19th century to produce proof coins. Or it may have been the US the first to purposely make proof coins? I asked because in 19th century coinage in my country we have some coins that get described as 'proof like' when they happened to come from new, good dies. A few months ago read an article on the subject, how the chief engraver got censored by the mint administrator for some coins coming out unlike others, 'lacking a shinny look'. In his defense he replied that he prepared the dies so that the field came out shiny and the relief with a frosted look. And that all dies when correctly prepared should initially produce coins like that, until they get worn. He said he could polish the dies but then the coins would come out with a 'loss of form' (detail), 'less artistic and contrary to common use everywhere' (in other contemporary mints). His proposed fix was to re-temper the dies when they started getting worn, so that all coins came out with the frosted look on the areas in relief, for uniformity. I think in english these would be more properly called cameo-like coins? But this is a US coin. Sorry I ramble. I guess it's a common issue coin that just happened to come from good dies and suffer little handling since. It has some places where the surface is marred. Under the right-side wing it seems to have taken a hit from some hard object, likely another coin, that disrupted the pattern in the field. Another such spot before the 'In God'. I can't get my camera to produce a good detailed photo of it but it's noticeable as darker zones there. They reflect light differently. A little in front and above the nose, and above the zero, there are spots where the pattern in the field is also weaker. The dark spot under the 1 is some black dirt. Seems like dust, coal powder or something like it. But I don't dare scratch at it to check. I got a better photo. Big ones. But they're the dealer's. Just noticed that he doesn't delete the pages for coins sold. I hadn't bought it online but managed to find it still. Would it be against forum rules if I link to those photos? Edited by jecz79
02/07/2023 06:32 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18684 Posts |
Quote:
Would it be against forum rules if I link to those photos? rather than post a link see if you can right click on the photo and copy or save it to your phone or PC. worst case you can screen print and then crop it. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
By all means post a link. This coin is very interesting and seeing large, hi-res images would be great.
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
669 Posts |
The bigger photo there is far too large to upload here. So if it's permitted here is the link *** Edited by Staff - Uploaded image here. *** Hope it remains online a while longer. Click on the photos to see the bigger ones. I can't manage to snap a photo of this coin half as good. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
The cheek looks very different than that in the pictures in the first post off this thread. The reverse looks great but the cheek is well marked up. This looks like a business strike.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/07/2023 5:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
669 Posts |
I'm afraid I suck at photographing coins. If it doesn't work on auto I never manage to fiddle with the settings correctly to improve on it!
Happy that you find the reverse good. Overall what is your opinion on possible grade with the better pictures?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
The coin has clean fields even in the obverse. The issue is that the cheek, jaw and upper neck appear to have some sort of damage. The area does not look like it has just contact marks from rubbing with other coins. The area looks like it had some metal movement and is well defined. I would call it uncirculated details - surface damage.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
669 Posts |
Sorry I think I know my mistake now. Trusting that fancy new technology is better. I was using this macro camera on my new phone.It must be doing some image processing that spoils photos of things with reflections. Used my old phone with a single camera now. Hard to focus but I think this shows the reality much better, how I see it with the eye also. I can only focus portions of the coin at a time this way. This is the face from the front and from the bottom   And this is how it looks with the newer phone in the macro mode. Comparing now I saw that it does smaller photos. And has somethink like big contrast that makes every surface imperfection seem bigger.  Sorry I only ever photographed my coins for myself, record-keeping. This for asking opinion about details on grading is new. |
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
669 Posts |
And this one has better focus on the chin.  Hope it helps for a more accurate opinion. Sorry if I'm posting too many pictures. I will ask a friend with a real, proper photo camera to help me with future coin photos for future topics here. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
You're not the only one who has had challenges with photos of large shiny objects. Many of us have had this experience. Appreciate all you efforts to provide an accurate rendition of the coin. A coin is tough to grade in a piecemeal fashion showing different parts of the coin. It looks like BH1964 may have had it right with MS64 maybe 65. Better pictures always lead to better assessments so I think all of your efforts help. Thanks!
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18684 Posts |
the new photo of the obv is quite different than the original. I had originally thought there was a possibility of proof but I also think you have a business strike.
just based on the obv photo you presented. MS63+ maybe 64 but the loss of all the luster across the cheek may keep this one short of 64
post a reverse photo like the new obv photo to get a more accurate assessment
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
669 Posts |
I would be very happy if this made MS65. I also found another nice 1904 in the same seller's stock, that one with a small hit on the back, not the face. Better get it than let it go to melt some day so I bought it also, the other day when I went to swap the 1923 for the 1914S.
He also had a 1900 and a 1900S. Both with several nicks from other coins. And a worn 1904. So I bought the two best looking, even with the same date.
I think this second 1904 was struck with a die that was more worn. To my liking the first one I show here is the better one. But the second may have fewer little marks.
Tomorrow with natural light I will try to get a photo of both, with the old phone camera. Now they always come out bad.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18684 Posts |
prior to buying raw check out already graded ones on ebay. I think you will find that even MS65 coins have marks and scuffs. they are more lenient on gold when grading. what you think is MS63 could be 64 and what you think is 64 theres a good chance it would grade 65 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7624 Posts |
Wonderful coin, but not a proof.
Based on the pics I would say 65 all day long!
A wise purchase indeed if you choose to end up with it.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Another note is that color and luster play a huge roll in grading these pieces. Because they are so big, heavy and relatively soft they can have several large contact marks and still grade 65 because of booming full mint luster and great color. Yours has lost significant luster and likely would not grade 65 at a top TPG. There a chance it could even grade AU+ even though these rarely circulated. Lastly, hidden problems are always a concern. Filed rims, light re-engraving, tiny signs of ex-jewelry or spots of light cleaning/wiping plague pre-33 U.S. gold pieces. |
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Replies: 39 / Views: 4,722 |
First Page
Posted 02/07/2023 04:03 am
