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If A Bunch Of Examples Of A Super Rare Coin Suddenly Come Onto The Market, Does That Indicate Fakes?

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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  5:42 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I just wanted to throw this question out to all the experts here and people who have been collecting coins for many years now (as a novice). I'd love to read what you guys have to say regarding this question. This is merely hypothetical.

Let's say there's a coin that rarely ever comes onto the market, an example where the frequency of market appearances is maybe just a hand full of times every 1-3 years, maybe even only once a year or once every other year. However, this coin isn't very popular and well known, the average collectors won't know about it unless they've taken the time to do the research and explore other areas of numismatics (both domestic and international).

Suddenly, in the span of maybe 1-3 months, multiple multiple examples come up for sale in different coin shops and auction houses, sometimes in auction houses in different countries. For example, a coin that is seen only once a year or once every three years, suddenly 5 are available for sale. The prices they start to sell at or do sell at are lower than the prices previous examples have sold for. The high-valued examples sold in the past were all TPG verified, but the examples for sale today aren't. Even though the coins aren't TPG verified, they still look descent and ok (they've got the "old", "crude", "circulated" look to them).

As a "seasoned" collector noticing a sudden influx of rare coins entering the market, would this indicate something fishy is up, that something doesn't seem right? Have any of you noticed this happening in the past where later on it was realized that many of the coins that came onto the market between certain years were all fake? Or perhaps they were all genuine, and many examples just suddenly managed to come onto the market for whatever reason? An examples to share?
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NumisRob's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
About 40 years ago a French coin magazine had an article about the 1868-BB (Strasbourg Mint) gold 100-franc coin. It appeared that several examples in Uncirculated condition had been listed by dealers around the same time. It's considered the key date of the series. The author of the article speculated that a pair of dies may have been smuggled out of Strasbourg Mint during the confusion that followed the end of the Franco-Prussian War, and that the dies may have ended up in the Far East. I have never heard any more about this in all the years since.
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Ploopy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  6:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It can also indicate that a hoard or collection was discovered and dispersed throughout the numismatic community.
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dsking's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  6:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It can also indicate that a hoard or collection was discovered and dispersed throughout the numismatic community.


Excellent point! This has happened so many times and the coins were legit and valuable! If a large hoard or collection is dispersed, generally the Numismatic community will be informed. There are many old time collections that go to auction quite often.

We just have to know our coins and research them for proper identification, and keep our eyes and ears open.
Edited by dsking
03/14/2023 6:54 pm
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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Numisrob do you mean this coin?

If-A-Bunch-Of-Examples-Of-A-Super-Rare-Coin-Suddenly-Come-Onto-The-Market,-Does-That-Indicate-Fakes?
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
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 Posted 03/14/2023  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If we are talking ancient and medaieval coins, then there are "surges" where once-rare coins suddenly become plentiful. This is usually as a result of modern geopolitical changes. For example, ancient Roman coins from the Siscia mint were once fairly difficult to find. Suddenly, in the 1990s, the market was flooded with them. Why? Coins from Siscia circulated mostly in the territory surrounding Siscia, which for most ofthe 20th century was Yugoslavia, a formerly closed communist country where metal detecting was forbidden. Then the iron curtain fell and furthermore Yugoslavia disintegrated into civil war. Wars and turmoil usually cause antiquities to flood the market. Siscia is now one of the most common mints for late Roman bronzes.

Likewise, Afghanistan-sourced coins (Bactria, Indo-Greek, early Afghan Islamic dynasties, etc) became much more common during the Western occupation of that country.

Nevertheless, there are also surges caused by counterfeiters. The "Black Sea Hoard" coins were the most notorious example in recent years: in 1988, a fellow in Bulgaria got mad at a German coin dealer for lowballing him and buying ancient Bulgarian coins too cheaply, so arranged to have thousands of fake ancient coins made and funneled through that German dealer. It took over a decade for them to finally be proven fake.

Modern coins are not immune from fake surges. In the 1970s in Australia, there was a sudden surge in Russian Empire 15 rouble gold coins turning up at Sydney coin dealers. Turns out most of them were freshly-minted debased-gold Eastern European fakes. Crewmen from Eastern European cargo ships would come ashore and sell the dealers rolls of these gold coins; the two coins on the ends of the rolls were genuine (and it was these end-of-roll coins that saw the most scrutiny from the dealers), but the bulk of the roll were fakes.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 03/14/2023  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first thought was to say this is evidence of a hoard.

The hoard would turn up as raw coins, and it could just be that the auction houses are trying to capitalize quickly (not taking the time/cost to slab them) since collectors will quickly realize the type is not as rare as it had been previously, and the supply-demand-price relationship will soon drive the price down sharply..

As far as your observation that this new group of raw coins is priced lower than previous slabbed examples, there is usually a price differential between slabbed and raw coins anyhow, Collectors will pray a premium for that guarantee of authenticity (except for me).

Still, I would be careful, and only buy from a dealer or auction house who guarantees the authenticy of the coins they sell unconditionally.

Last question: is your comparison of rarity "apples to apples?" Didi you look for past sales of the coin in all the same places you notice they have appeared for sale?



Edited by tdziemia
03/14/2023 9:41 pm
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jbuck's Avatar
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NumisRob's Avatar
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 Posted 03/15/2023  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
@Numisrob do you mean this coin?

Yes. But I never found out if there was any truth in the story in the French coin magazine.
Edited by NumisRob
03/15/2023 1:53 pm
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TinyRetreat's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TinyRetreat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Historically, hoards have come available, to drastically change the market. When the " Morgan dollar Hoards" held by the Federal Government, were released to the public, $1000 bags were sold for face value and certain dates/mints that were once deemed semi-key and somewhat rare, flooded the market ... changed it forever. I'm new enough to know that I personally must research coin data, in order to protect myself ... I've been burned.


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 Posted 03/17/2023  03:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Secret Argent Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd also expect that the macroeconomic picture may play into things as well.
I don't have anything to base it on,other than that these very rare and very valuable coins are often how the ultra-wealthy stash their money. Logic would then say that upheaval in that sector would likely affect the frequency at which something comes up for sale.
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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia The sources that I use to look up how many examples of a particular coin have sold and for what amount in the past are mostly from the bigger American auction house archives (the usual like Stack's, Heritage, GC, and others), as well as some of the archive websites any person can subscribe too for more international information (European for the most part). However, many of these services don't include data and information from auction house records in Asia (language barrier probably). Plus, there are many domestic and international auction house archives that can't be easily found online unless you know that the auction house exists. So, perhaps the data I have as an amateur is skewed and doesn't paint the full picture. I'd imagine though that if the vanguards of numismatics here in the US don't often see a particular type of coin, than smaller auction houses will rarely if ever see that coin as well. Of course, maybe in the US some coins are rarely seen because all the collectors are abroad in Europe or Asia, where those same coins may come up for sale a lot more often and the news just never travels here because the interest is more niche to us Americans.
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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  6:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@NumisRob Maybe those coins were counterfeited as an attempt to move gold into the US back when owning bullion was illegal.
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newguy22's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  6:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add newguy22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Secret Argent Man Would you care to elaborate more on your idea? It sounds interesting!
When I mention a super rare coin, I don't necessarily mean a coin that is worth thousands of dollars, or even tens of thousands of dollars. From what I've seen, there are many many coins that only come up a handful of times each year or every other year, but they don't cost an arm and a leg. They're just not popular. I'm talking about a coin that might have sold for maybe $800-$1500 six years ago, but then suddenly, a bunch comes up for sale and they all sell for between $150-$400, or even less. The same goes for tokens as well.

If I was a coin enthusiast working and living in a place where $150 is a lot of money (a couple weeks to a month's salary), of course I'd consider trying to manufacture modern forgeries, especially if I have experience in craftsmanship, jewelry, or metal working. I could potentially turn $1 worth of raw materials into 100x or even 1000x that. There's an incentive for someone out there to do this, and I'm curious to know of more examples in this hobby's history where many "experts" at the time were fooled by the really good counterfeiters.
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dsking's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  7:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought that this article was interesting where the "experts" were faked out by a real coin.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-en...ent-63636641
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 03/17/2023  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@newguy, thanks for the answer.

I collect some places that are relatively obscure to U.S. collectors, and that come up far more often in European auction houses that are regionally focused, than places like Heritage and Stacks. While you haven't come out and said what coin types you are referring to, I can imagine your situation could be something like mine.

Hence my question/comment about the notion of rarity, and how one comes to that conclusion.

The rarest coins in my collection have not come up for sale in at least 20 years at any U.S. auction house. But they do come up occasionally at auction houses that are are represented in acsearch and the Sixbid archives. So I understand a number of the points you've made (and continue to be curious about the specific coins to which you are referring).

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