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1940 D LWC DDR (1-DR-001)

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CoinHI's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  12:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I stopped by my local junk/thrift store and asked if they had any wheat cents. Owner said not really but pulled out his desk drawer and rummaged around and threw together a small box of wheats and a couple IHC's. It was probably about a roll and a half. Nothing super flashy but I did find this DDR. Interesting to see thickness on the north of "O" in ONE and south bar thickness on the "E" in America. I'm not 100% on the attribution but the MM location looks right.


1940-D-LWC-DDR-1-DR-001
1940-D-LWC-DDR-1-DR-001
1940-D-LWC-DDR-1-DR-001
1940-D-LWC-DDR-1-DR-001
1940-D-LWC-DDR-1-DR-001
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RobO411 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
. Looks like a good call.
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you guys call out the indicators of the doubling, and how it's known to be die doubling?

http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20L...0DDDR001.htm

I'm not even sure how VV concluded doubling.
Edited by Brandmeister
06/14/2023 2:08 pm
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HGK3's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Brand,

Great question. When consulting any of the reference sites/sources, always, always, always read the description first. This tells you exactly where to look for evidence of hub doubling.

VV does a great job of loading lots of pictures, but often they are intended to show die markers or die states rather than just the doubling, so if you start by looking at their photos you'll spend time looking at aspects not directly related to the doubling.

The attribution provided (1940D-1DR-001) tells you that the OP consulted Copper Coins website as this is the format they use and their description reads:

"Light extra thickness is seen on the lettering and dots in E.PLURIBUS.UNUM, the top of the O in ONE, the right and left wheat ears and the horizontal bars of the E in AMERICA."

Some of the reference sites will provide cross references for other sites and some don't, so it helps to learn the various formats so you can compare the coin directly to the reference source.

On this DDR, the dots are elongated and the bottoms of some of the letters in EPU are wider than normal (E, L, & U are the easiest to spot). Not all Wheat cent DDR's involve EPU, but it's one of the more common areas (and easiest) to find them.
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 Posted 06/14/2023  4:07 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did read the description. But how did VV conclude that light extra thickness on EPU was due specifically to die doubling? I have seen coins with wear that made the letters slightly fatter, for example. It's not like there are split serifs, equal height devices with slope, or another screamingly obvious indicator.

How do I know he isn't just seeing horsies in the clouds?
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 Posted 06/14/2023  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On a Wheat cent reverse the elongated dots are one of the best signs as they rarely develop due to circulation wear, and the direction of the elongation, towards the center of the coin, should also be present on the EPU, but most visible on letters with bottom bars.

When you see the elongated dots AND see the fatter letter bottoms that's a sign of hub doubling because it indicates the hub or die moved or was misaligned between the first and second hubbing and indicates the specific direction of the movement.

If you saw fat letter bottoms AND sides AND tops you would more likely be looking at circulation flattening because, rather than all over, doubling occurs in a specific direction (the direction of the movement/misalignment).

Looking at circulated coins makes the identification of doubling difficult sometimes, so here's another example of a DDR where the dots in EPU are in a particularly pronounced "egg" shape. Notice the bottom of the E, L & U are fatter on this coin than on the normal, non doubled variety.

DDR:

http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20L...0DDDR001.htm

Non DDR:

https://www.PCGS.com/coinfacts/coin...d-1c-rd/2608
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the detailed response.

Dumb question, how do you distinguish between hub doubling that is pulling towards the center, and Mechanical Doubling that is pushing towards the rim? Wouldn't both result in fatter portions of some letters in a particular radial direction?
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CoinHI's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  7:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Brandmeister, check out doubleddie.com for detailed info on the various classes of doubled dies.

here is the class VI info http://doubleddie.com/203948.html
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


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-makecents-'s Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice one, and a good story to finding it!
-makecents-
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Cujohn's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  7:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cujohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As HGK3 stated, it's the dots, always the dots on a wheat DDR. That's the easiest way that I've found to identify them. Circulation might flatten the letters, but the dots will not elongate with circulation.
Edited by Cujohn
06/14/2023 8:00 pm
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 06/14/2023  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yep, the dots will tell the story easily, and as I mentioned above, the EPU on this coin is also obvious.
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