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Can't Tell The Overijssel Ducats Without A Scorecard (Namely Delmonte)

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 Posted 07/04/2023  4:27 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Having recently obtained a copy of Delmonte's Le Benelux d'Or (1964), I am working on improving some of the Numista catalog listings on certain Dutch types with multiple Delmonte catalog numbers.
Nope, these are not coins I will ever be able to add to my collection.
It's an act of (nearly) pure altruism , though it gave me a better understanding of this type, and an appreciation of the fallibility of auction houses (and maybe even the author).

First coin I tackled was the 2 ducat (dubbele dukaat) of the province of Overijssel struck between 1582 and 1593, commonly called the Spanish type for obvious reasons (also Friedberg 261).

Can't-Tell-The-Overijssel-Ducats-Without-A-Scorecard-Namely-Delmonte

Delmonte identifies 4 subtypes, numbered 1043-1046, all of which have the same main devices, and more-or-less the same legend, but are differentiated by the presence and location of these four marks: city gate, hook, lion, lion of Overijssel:

Can't-Tell-The-Overijssel-Ducats-Without-A-Scorecard-Namely-Delmonte

So, for example, looking at the full coin images above, we see the city gate at 12:00 obverse, and the hook at 6:00 reverse, which identifies the coin as Delmonte 1043. Delmonte 1046 had the city gate at 6:00 obverse, and the Overijssel lion at 6:00 reverse, and so on ...

Using acsearch and searching on the Delmonte numbers and/or Fr 261, 24 sales can be found, which break down as follows (Delmonte's rarity ratings):

Delmonte 1043 (R1) - 9 sales, of which 4 mis-attributed and 1 not assigned a Delmonte number
Delmonte 1044 (R4) - 3 sales, all of the same coin
Delmonte 1045 (R1) - 1 sale, mis-attributed as 1046
Delmonte 1046 (R4) - 8 sales, of which 3 misattributed. Additional 3 sales of coins that might be considered 1046 variants.

Two things stood out from the analysis:
1. Of clearcut cases (not variants) where a Delmonte number was assigned, 40% were assigned incorrectly. Places like Stacks, Heritage and Kunker made mistakes. Places in the Low Countries (Elsen, Heritage Europe) did not.

2. At least one of the rarity assignments by Delmonte requires revision. He assigns R4 to types where 2 or 3 examples are known, which could not pertain to 1046 (maybe this is a known error in the catalog).

Lastly, netiher Delmonte nor Van Gelder and Hoc identify the mint to Kampen, though the city gate is known to signify the Kampen mint on other Dutch coins of this era, and it's known the Kampen mint was striking other gold types (nobles and other ducats) around this time. Perhaps there is documentary evidence on the other types, but not on the 2 ducat?



Edited by tdziemia
07/04/2023 4:33 pm
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 Posted 07/04/2023  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a gorgeous coin Ted and I was thinking that maybe it came from your collection at first!

I don't have answers to you questions, but instead will pose an additional. It seems odd to me that both the obv and rev contained mint marks, which together let the coins be attributed into different groups. Could one be a die makers mark instead?
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 Posted 07/04/2023  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add samoth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1. Of clearcut cases (not variants) where a Delmonte number was assigned, 40% were assigned incorrectly. Places like Stacks, Heritage and Kunker made mistakes. Places in the Low Countries (Elsen, Heritage Europe) did not.


I've seen this on occasion as well. Sometimes it's an opportunity for the knowledgeable buyer, but more often than not the market seems to correct for any misattributions. I wonder how long it takes a house to attribute & grade every incoming item for a quarterly auction?


Quote:
2. At least one of the rarity assignments by Delmonte requires revision. He assigns R4 to types where 2 or 3 examples are known, which could not pertain to 1046 (maybe this is a known error in the catalog).


I also see this with authors that have large scopes. There are a number of obvious errors in Van Houdt for the late 15th century, but give the vast scope of his book, I guess I can't hold that against him. (Imagine how hard this would be in pre-internet days!)

It looks like we have a similar approach to researching coins -- it's one of the aspects of numismatics that I really enjoy
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 Posted 07/04/2023  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't have answers to you questions, but instead will pose an additional. It seems odd to me that both the obv and rev contained mint marks, which together let the coins be attributed into different groups. Could one be a die makers mark instead?


Good point, Dave. Indeed, the other catalog, Van Gelder & Hoc, splits this coin into just two subtypes: hook and lion.

The city gate appears on all four Delmonte types (there is one rare variant that lacks it, but apparently there is no concern of it being a fake), and this is why I raised the question about the mint being Kampen. If the mintmaster or engraver changed, this could explain the hook versus the lion.
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 Posted 07/04/2023  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I've seen this on occasion as well. Sometimes it's an opportunity for the knowledgeable buyer, but more often than not the market seems to correct for any misattributions. I wonder how long it takes a house to attribute & grade every incoming item for a quarterly auction?


Good points. I figure if it took me ten years to get knowledgeable enough to spot mistakes, there are a lot of 20- to-30 year collectors out there who also see them. We can hope that luck (or inattention?) occasionally intervene.

I've also wondered how many people are involved in attributing and grading coins at some of the places I deal with. CNG has fifteen numismatists (could they possibly all be full-time?). I found that surprising (i.e. high).
Edited by tdziemia
07/04/2023 9:28 pm
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