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 Replies: 14 / Views: 1,661 |
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Valued Member
United States
327 Posts |
Admittedly, this is a problem I have suffered with for years. I see a coin with my eyes. Looks wonderful. Great luster. I place the coin on my copy stand and CANNOT EVER get the glare that I see with my eyes! Using this 5D mk II with a bellows, I have these lights up so tight to the bellows/lens that the light housing often clips the image.
Having said all that, I think I read and saw a photo once of someone using a copystand but with a way to offset the angle and the lights to achieve the desired glare off the coin. I have a problem also with the color not being accurate to the coin color but that is easier to fix in post-processing. If I don't get the luster right though, nothing else matters.
Please give me your thoughts and/or recommendations. Thanks
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18741 Posts |
Are you using diffusers on your lights?
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
Luster requires a low and narrow light source, like the spot light in the picture below from Peter Anthony.  |
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Valued Member
 United States
327 Posts |
@coinphotofan I will ask for more specifics. Lights at low elevation get me nothing but a brighter image. Good detail to be sure but not the luster. You recommended a narrow light source. The lights in your photo look more like LED floods. Can you describe what you mean by narrow? The only time I can get a little bit of luster in the picture is when I have the lights directly above and tight to both sides of the lens. When I move the lights and watch the live view, for split seconds I see that luster but can't keep it in the correct position for more than a moment. It's just never as good as what I see with my own eyes. When looking at a coin with my eyes directly, I can manipulate the coin angle with the light from above and see that luster yes? If only my eyes were the lens and I could take the shot, lol. @Hondo. I have two small LED lights called Jansjo. Not sure if you have heard of them. They were from Ikea originally. Anyway, when we set up the system, we removed the lens and added one layer of opalux to diffuse and then put the lens back on. Just fyi, the bottom of the bellows is about 12" from the stage that the coin sits on. I'm determined to get this done, right. I know it's possible because I see all of the ebay photos etc. I'm thinking to myself, what do I need to do here? Replace the lights? Go mirrorless? Get a different copy stand? I just don't know. Thanks again for your experience and opinions. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17525 Posts |
I've had very good luck using an 'axial lighting' solution, with a diffused lighting source. Suggest googling 'coin axial lighting'. Note that axial solutions can vary a bit in terms of set up.
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
@johnstac, there are four light devices in the photo, two LED panels ("main lights"), one spot light at a very low angle ("spot") and a reflecting card. The "low and narrow light source" refers to the spot light, which I circled out in the picture below:  Jansjo is a narrow light source. The picture below was taken by me with three Jansjo lights, showing three luster bands:  Wide light sources, such as ring lights, axial lighting, fluorescent lights, will not produce such luster bands. The picture below was taken with axial lighting:  But if you add a narrow light source, you can create luster band(s). The following picture was taken with axial lighting AND a Jansjo light specifically to create the luster band:  A right light will give this effect only:  It makes a very lustrous coin look more dead than alive. You just need to experiment with lights of various sizes, at different angles and in different positions. It would be helpful if you can upload some of your own photos. |
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
"A right light" should be "a ring light."
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Valued Member
United States
327 Posts |
@coinphotofan Thank you for posting the photos. I will make it a point to post some of my own for a critique. Your light set up; this is different from what I've seen in the past. Can you explain the purpose of the LED floods. I absolutely have no idea you are creating luster lines with a spotlight at that low of an angle. You mentioned a reflector card. What is that doing? I appreciate your patience with me. I am just not familiar with your setup. I'm sure I'll be asking for the names of the specific lights so I can try and mimic the results, lol. What has me so confounded is that my method is so completely different.
On another note, I did build my own axial lighting setup a few weeks ago but the images were mostly washed out using an LED flood as the light source. I will try your suggestion of using the jansjo for more of a focused beam.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3935 Posts |
When you put the coin on the copy stand, the lighting is different from when you were looking at it in-hand. Try to reproduce the lighting that makes it look wonderful with great luster. Remember that when you view a coin in-hand, you are looking at it with two eyes, so when setting up lighting you should view the coin with just one eye, like the camera would see. If you do this, and find a lighting situation you like, put the camera where your eye is and the photograph will turn out exactly like you are seeing.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5339 Posts |
That lighting setup by Peter Anthony is not likely to give you much luster (or glare as you call it). The lights are too diffuse and the angles are too low. Your Jansjo lights at a high angle should work fine. Can you show us your camera and lighting setup, and maybe an example of a coin photo where the luster is insufficient? Are you using a dedicated macro lens or a reverse mount with your bellows?
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
@johnstac, it looks like I have a lot of explanation to do. First, that photo of a sophisticated light setup is not from me. I explained that it is from Peter Anthony. He was a professional photographer/documentary filmmaker. Here is his info: https://coinsweekly.com/whoswho/anthony-peter/Second, I will explain the functions of the lights in the photo. Here it is again:  The "main lights" serve the purpose of overall illumination, to cast uniform light on the coin. But they are wide light sources, and won't be able to create luster bands, or shadows, or borders, or 3D effect. So a low angle spot light is added, for the purpose of creating those. Often this is call an auxiliary light, or an accent light, or a focus light, or spot light. (The reflecting card is to fill in some dark areas, which I will explain in another reply.) To give you another example, in "The Art of Coins and Their Photography", Gerald Hoberman provides a similar setup:  He believes that natural light at noon on a cloudy day is the best "main light", so he mimics that effect by using an umbrella reflector, to reflect the light shooting at it from below. This is the main light source, very wide. But to add luster, or shadows, or borders, or 3D effect, he uses a low angle light of a much smaller size. The detailed explanations are on page 341 of his book. Can you shoot coin photos without a wide "main light"? Sure. The first coin in my previous post was taken with three Jansjos. Here it is again:  None was the main light. But as you can see, the surface is kind of dark overall, which some people don't like. Third, once you are able to create luster bands, you will need to be able to adjust their appearance. The principle is the higher the light source, the wider and weaker the bands. (But we all like narrow and strong luster bands on MS coins. ) Here is an illustration from Mark Goodman's "Numismatic Photography", showing the different luster bands that lights at different angles create:  I am not sure whether this is too much information for you. There are books that offer advice on macro photography lighting. In addition to the two books I already mentioned, Lester Lefkowitz's "Manual of Close-Up Photography" has an excellent chapter on lighting. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5339 Posts |
As @coinphotofan's illustration shows, the luster bands are stronger and broader with higher angle lighting, which is why that low angle spotlight in Peter Anthony's setup probably won't give you much luster. It can be useful for increasing contrast in proof coins.
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Valued Member
United States
327 Posts |
Thank you @Zurie. I thought I was going crazy or something. I've never been able to get luster bands at all using low angle lighting. Nonetheless, there's clearly more experimenting to do. @coinphorofan I really appreciate all of the info and the references you provided and by no means is it too much information! What started as cataloging my own collection has evolved into a much broader education. I promise, I will get some photos up shortly. I'm getting my "want" list ready for the Long Beach Coin Show this week so I've been preoccupied with that. I am absolutely committed to becoming at least proficient at photographing my copper collection. I truly want to blame my equipment and even though I still believe that equipment could be part of the issue, the greater part is likely the skill I'm lacking! &  |
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Valued Member
United States
71 Posts |
@johnstac, here is the story about reflective cards. In the simplest case, when you have a main light source, but it is not enough to illuminate some parts of the object, you have a couple of choices: add an auxiliary/fill-in light, or use some reflective devices, like cards or even boxes. Sometimes, another light will be too strong, leading to hot spots or competing with the main light. That's when the reflecting device comes in handy. Lester Lefkowitz gives the following illustration:  On the left photo, the lower left corner is too dark, merging into the dark background, because the light source is on the other side. By adding a reflective card, some weak light is thrown to the previously dark corner. It does not compete with the main light, but is enough to bring out the outline of the object from the background. In the following photo, the one main light is on the left side. While this light is showing shadows and borders, creating nice 3D effects, the details on the opposite side of the face is lost.  Instead of adding another fill-in light, a reflective card is used, which is enough to illuminate what was previously missing without competing with the main light.  Gold- and silver-plated medals are notoriously difficult to shoot, because of their extremely shiny surfaces. The light has to be adjusted very carefully to avoid over-exposed hot spots. Adding more lights will be a nightmare because there will be too many hot spots to deal with. In the photo below, I use only one main light, at the 1 o'clock position. But the lower parts of the figures and their necks would be too dark. To solve that problem, I add a few reflecting cards to light up these parts. They provide enough lighting, and I do not have to worry about hot spots.  I wrote this just because you were asking about the use of reflective cards. They have nothing to do with the luster bands you are searching for. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1390 Posts |
Helpful thread & discussion. Thank you.
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,661 |
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Posted 09/02/2023 02:15 am
