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PCGS - Not Genuine (?!)

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Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  3:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A very small number of my coins in recent submissions came back with this horrific verdict from PCGS: Not Genuine.

In particular they were mainly some liberty gold $1 and early silver (Bust) $1 coins.

In most cases PCGS gave little details and explained that the grading process was stopped when the weight of coin was noticed to fall just outside their expected "degree of precision".

So they are not gradable by PCGS for sure, but my question: Does this mean that coins were REALLY counterfeit? PCGS was not able to answer this for all cases with a definitive statement.

Any other experiences?

I am wondering what other TPG's would say about these coins....
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BH1964's Avatar
United States
10982 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So they are not gradable by PCGS for sure, but my question: Does this mean that coins were REALLY counterfeit?


If PCGS returned the coins as "Not Genuine", then they're counterfeit. Since you know weight was a concern, weigh the coins yourself and see how far off they really are. I'd guess they must be under weight by at least 10% but verify that before proceeding.

If you could a few pics here with the weight, we could give you a layman's opinion.

Sorry for your misfortune but please realize that gold dollars and early bust dollars are often counterfeited and should be purchased from a reliable source and/or certified by a major TPG.
ANA #R3154474
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Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for sympathy. Indeed I take a hard learning from this. Most of the coins were bought years ago on ebay and of course sold as authentic (IE, non replicas).

PCGS has not (yet) returned to me the coins so I cannot weigh them, but one of them was a recent 2009 ebay purchase and I DO have pic of this one. (Also in a related post of mine...)

Image Insert:
PCGS---Not-Genuine-?!




Image Insert:
PCGS---Not-Genuine-?!



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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does this mean that coins were REALLY counterfeit?


No.

Having said that, the two categories you mention are among the most-counterfeited, and I simply would not buy either from a non-US source, excepting a very trustworthy dealer. Bust Dollars, especially, are counterfeited to the extent that it's almost certain there are more counterfeits available than real examples. Do you have the ability to weigh them with a precision of 0.1gm? If not, acceptable electronic scales are available on ebay (US; I don't know about Europe) for less than US$25.
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although the coin APPEARS to be legit, some of these counterfeiters are getting very good even applying wear along with toning and grime. The best way to avoid these situations is buy from reputable dealers with the coins already slabbed by a reputable TPG with a "buy back" policy from the dealer or a "No questions asked" return policy. And I agree, invest in a gram scale.
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2009  7:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another possible explanation for the low weight is the possibility that the rims were shaved by silver profiteers. Some unscrupulous people would actually shave small amounts of silver off the coin and if you do that to enough coins, you could come up with quite a pile of silver shavings. Obviously, this was done when a dollar was a significant amount of money. This hypothesis would probably not work for a coin that was 15-20% light but if correct, you would still have a damaged coin When it gets back from PCGS, get an accurate weight and inspect the rims to see if the edge lettering is still intact.
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Jim Archibald's Avatar
United States
198 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2009  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim Archibald to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chinese counterfeits are a growing problem today, they are approved as a legitimate business in China today and readily sold on ebay, with and without the handy "can be added later" counterstamps of replica and copy. ~ Jim
Edited by Jim Archibald
04/05/2009 11:15 am
New Member
Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2009  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting commit regarding the shaved silver rims. I've heard this was more common with the gold coins or even better some folks would inject a device and extract the center and replace it with something like copper.
Anyhow, for the record the source of this coin WAS actually from the USA.

Despite that the ebay dispute period has long past... As a US citizen myself (living abroad) I understand that I have rights to file civil suit in my home state should I decide to pursue. It is definitely illegal to sell a counterfeit under the pretense that it is authentic!
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chris12018's Avatar
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2009  07:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would still contact ebay/ member. After All, before you can post a coin for sale, you have to check the authenticity box. And, pay pal might be able to help. They can hold funds of seller until problem is resolved. You have nothing to loose by trying.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2009  09:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
there is a limit even with paypal on how long you can file a dispute. I would probably contact the seller to see what they have to say about it but most sellers would be weary of taking the coin back because it could have easily been switched unless they have some sort of documentation to prove its the same coin (like photos showing the exact same wear pattern and marks). That is why most sellers say the only way they take returns is if the coin is sent back in the same container (flip,slab,whatever) it was sent in, that way they know it hasn't been switched and if its not in the same thing they don't take it back unless there is no question its the same coin. If you feel its worth it to sue the seller (I don't know how much you paid) then yes that is an option because it is illegal to sell a counterfeit coin as legit but I am not sure if you would have to prove that the seller knew it was counterfeit or not but if you paid allot for it and you feel it would be worth it to pay more to fight it in court to recoup some of the money then as I said that could be an option
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Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2009  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very good point Brian. Actually I did contact with seller with no response. In this case there are specific reasons I cast additional doubt on this seller because some inconsistent communication we exchanged regarding the coin not to mention that I was approached after transaction to but more "outside" ebay. Despite the deadlines being past for eBay/Pay Pal dispute there are actually legal small claims options on the table.

I might consider executing some of these. I DO want to protect the buyer and the collector!





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Gothic Florin's Avatar
United States
2541 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2009  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gothic Florin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You should report the seller to the Secret Service or FBI. Counterfeits are illegal!
New Member
Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2009  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Done :) & case settled by ebay despite the fact that deadline for dispute period had past :))
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chris1222nascar's Avatar
United States
314 Posts
 Posted 04/29/2009  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris1222nascar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay for the coin off of ebay?
Valued Member
United States
90 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2009  08:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MarkS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm glad this worked out for you. Despite all the complaints about ebay (their fees really have gone thru the roof), they do a good job of protecting the buyer IMHO.
New Member
Netherlands
32 Posts
 Posted 05/08/2009  1:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add skylerdmpl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks! -- Around $600 to answer question above..
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