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Are Die States And Markers Relevant On Proof Coin Listings?

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Brandmeister's Avatar
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 Posted 12/21/2023  1:56 pm Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
As I have been poring over the DDO and DDR listings for various years, I have arrived at a question regarding die state. Is it even relevant for proof coins? It seems to me that proof dies are re-polished at various points to remove imperfections and restore a mirror finish to the fields. You can see lettering and mint marks thinning and sinking into the field on many gleaming coins.

I believe this process destroys most shallow markers on the die faces. Also, it seems to me that a really thin and shallow S mint mark might indicate repeated heavy polishing. Many times, the S is hammered super deep, very thick, and you can see the imperfections on the punch. Often this corresponds to thick devices. Coins with thinner devices, softened devices seem to correspond more often with thin mint marks and sinking devices. There are times when coins are listed as EDS where lettering is already developing gaps and thin posts due to polishing.

Is this an accurate observation?
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 Posted 12/21/2023  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tacc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I notice a distinct difference in my various collection of proofs.
Of course my graded proofs listed as First Strike Deep Cameo (mine are mostly from the 90's)
are most certainly very very nice...all the way down to just regular proof strikes that leave alot to be
desired as far as details. On the lower quality proofs, I notice much more doubling although minor
which I know to caused by the minting process of striking proofs twice.
I don't own any new proofs after about 1999.
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 Posted 12/21/2023  3:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dies do eventually wear out and before the end of their use the coins they struck can show die wear. Some older coins show evidence of die polishing to extend the life of the die. I think the US Mint is a lot more careful retiring proof dies rather than circulated coins. Circulation coin dies can strike hundreds of thousands in the fast press machines. There's been a few times when the mint has sold canceled dies to the public. I have a 1996 Olympic die that was cancelled with an X on it but most of the design is still there. It only struck 716 coins then was retired, removed from the press due to some slight damage on the field called starburst, small pits.

A lot of collectors enjoy third party labels like "first strike" "early releases" etc. But the mint has stated they do not keep track of when a coin was struck and they do not ship coins in the order they were struck. In my opinion it's the grade that counts most, not the phrase on the label. Coins struck the first day can get a MS70 and the last coin struck of that type on it's last day can also get a MS70. I assume it depends when a mint employee examines the coins and decides to retire a die and start with a new one. But maybe they have a computer with camera to scan coins for quality, I don't know. It's possible your chances of getting a better looking coin are improved at the beginning of a run rather than the end of production, at least some collectors think so.
Edited by livingwater
12/21/2023 4:05 pm
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The proof coins I am looking at are from the 60s through the early 80s. I assume there were differences in proof coin production compared to anything using more modern computerized equipment.

Tacc brings up a good point about proof Strike Doubling. I hadn't considered that angle.

My overall sense is that on some proof doubled die listings, I think the coins listed as Early Die State are sometimes a much later die state that has been freshly polished in the fields.
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 Posted 12/21/2023  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have some Morgan and Peace dollars which have VAM numbers. Some are listed with various die stages. In particular I have several 1891 O Morgans with early, mid and last die stage of a clash and die break. Proof coins can have doubled dies and other errors but I don't know much about them or their stages.
Edited by livingwater
12/21/2023 5:49 pm
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