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1920 Cent...

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Valued Member
dreamstones's Avatar
United States
292 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2009  08:14 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dreamstones to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I know it's not a big deal but I found this one while roll searching a $25 box yesterday. It's the oldest Canadian cent I have found to date and in much better condition than most of the wheaties I find around this date.


1920-Cent...



1920-Cent...

Just thought I'd share...I don't know much about Canadian cents but I keep anything older than current designs and will someday learn about them! (I just started on Liberty nickels...)
Bedrock of the Community
DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2009  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a pretty cool find in a US box of cents!
The condition looks around VF20 to me--better than I'd expect.
Valued Member
coinsnpaper's Avatar
Canada
480 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  04:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is the First Canadian Small Cent.
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xshift's Avatar
United States
2669 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  07:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xshift to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Neat find! As coinsnpaper said, this is the first year they started making the cents about the same size as the U.S. cents. Earlier the same year they were still making the large cents, so there are both types for 1920.
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Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hello DVC...
VF 20?? NOT!!!!1
max VG10
maybe I should have you re-grade all my junk coins....lolololol
HHB
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
VF 20?? NOT!1
max VG10


Well...you are probably a stricter grader than I, but I'm not accustomed to seeing so much crown detail in a VG10.
For instance, the lower crown band would be broken on a VG10. Of course, the OP shouldn't take my word for it...so here's a 1923 graded by ICCS as F-15.
Granted these are just photos, but to my eyes there is more detail in the coin above. ICCS grading standards are good enough for me.

1920-Cent...

1920-Cent...
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malissadawn's Avatar
Canada
1931 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malissadawn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all, I think that there may be issues with grading this coin since the bust side of the coin seems to me to be weakly struck.

I would normally at a quick glance say F+ and move along. But, since I can see that it still has full bands, it gives me issue with a low grade.

I would say it has to be at least a VF20, since there are full bands and a VF20 is described as having central bands worn away. I was hesitant to offer a grade on this one because of my uncertainty but I will say that I would grade from the image as VF.

Maybe there is more detail visible in hand or under different lighting?

malissa
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Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Malissa, too much wear on the obverse..much too much and also rim damage..and.... it appears to have been cleaned...looks that way..
Maybe Brian or Scott @ ICCS like you ...lolololo
I have sent the same coin 4 time....and got 4 different grades, from VG10 to VF20... beats me...and it should be so simple. I am only in to coins for the last 3 years, so I assume you guys have a lot more experience than I have. But I am a fast learner...
HHB
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KurtS's Avatar
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  3:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm just going to say it--there's no way that coin is a VG10--there's far too much eyebrow, cheek, crown band and moustache tip remaining (imo). I don't see evidence of cleaning either--just an oversaturated photo. Dirt collects in the legends faster than elsewhere.

As Malissa noted, weak strike may play a part here. Grading opinions are fine, but using a standard reference lends authority to your grade. Otherwise all opinions become equal.

After all, we're collectors here--not a TPG. It's a bit problematic to think we can out-grade a respected company like ICCS (imo) Just for fun, sure--but I cannot extrapolate one situation on all ICCS grades.

So I'll just post a grading reference from Charest's Canadian coins and their varieties, and let others decide as to grade. Still, it's a fun find for a box of US cents!

1920-Cent...
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Metalman's Avatar
United States
7123 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2009  7:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I gotta tell ya its almost as bad to undergrade as it is to overgrade .

once a pattern has established with false grading information either way up or down its difficult to be dogmatic about what grade any coin may really be.

strive for accuracy both directions , with technical grading points , subjectivity only really applies to eye appeal .

by the way HHB there is no need to be defensive in your replies or arrogant in your demeanor with the little jabs and chuckles , we are a family type forum and that sort of thing is really not aloowed to take place , want to teach someone to grade thats really good , want to ridicule it won't be tolerated for long .

we have collectors of all levels from the very new like yourself to the very experianced , those highly experianced and respected folks you will come to know over time .



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SHAFTA9a's Avatar
Canada
10743 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2009  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SHAFTA9a to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not a professional grader either, but, I would say dreamstones coin is a VF-20 IMO, nether the less a pretty nice find in a U.S. box of cents.
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Dollar1948's Avatar
Canada
636 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2009  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dollar1948 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"I'm not a professional grader either, but, I would say dreamstones coin is a VF-20 IMO, nether the less a pretty nice find in a U.S. box of cents."

I agree...theres not enough detail around the band of the crown..and thats just for starters.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2009  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
this coin was graded by ICCS as an VF20
then as an F15, then again as an VF20..
by NGC as an EF 40
then agin by ICCS as an VF30
so you be the judge...
what is it...

Image: 1920-Cent... 19231Cobv25.jpg
86.59 KB

Image: 1920-Cent... 19231Crev.jpg
91.14 KB
Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2009  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mkb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The images display quite small considering their size - perhaps posting and linking them on photobucket would be better.

AS for grade, its tough to tell from the images. The reverse looks good, and better than VF30. But the obverse does not look as good, likely a weak strike at this point. It tends to look like about a VF25. But considering that the strike is likely weak, the reverse is decent, then a grade of VF30 by ICCS is reasonable. A grade of EF40 by NGC is also reasonable as older coins such as this are graded easier in the US.

That was an expensive effort grading this coin, but it does reveal important inconsistencies in the market that folks should be aware of. That's why learning to grade yourself is important in this hobby.
Valued Member
dreamstones's Avatar
United States
292 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2009  07:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dreamstones to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,
Thanks for all the opinions...didn't mean to start a controversy. This is a scan...my photo skills would surely land me in the worst photo category and be made fun of...need lots more practice. I was very intrigued by the fact that both small and large cents were made this year, now I'll have to procure one of the large cents to go with it! Anyway, as stated it was a fun find in a US box of cents...
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wwhitman's Avatar
United States
1415 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2009  08:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wwhitman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great find Dreamstones.
Looks like you made an excellent buy.
with VF-25. Exceptional find in circulation.

DVCollector:
If you happen to come across this.
HOW DID YOU GET SUCH FINE PICS OF ICCS COINS?
Mine are absolutely AWLFUL!
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