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 Replies: 19 / Views: 1,800 |
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
847 Posts |
Hi All, In my collection I have this medieval bronze coin for quite a while. Till now I am not able to find it. Having searched in Feodales by Poey D'avant but also several dutch and flandres literature. The obvious thing is the crown in the centre next to the fleur de lis which is not in best shape anymore. I have not found a coin that has the crown and fleur de lis in centre. Only a leopard and lis from aquitaine.   |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Reverse might have CIV AQVI or AQVT?
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
 Netherlands
847 Posts |
Hi Paralyse, it might be. It can also read TVRONVS on the cross side which indicate tours.
In the centre a crown with fleur de lis is a style I have not seen before yet.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7933 Posts |
What is the size? I usually think of a mijt or 2 mijten or a Liege brule for a copper coin like this, but I did not find a match. Could Italy also be a possibility? French ruling houses ruled parts of Italy (Genoa, Milan, Naples/Sicily) at times in the late medieval era. This coin has the main elements (crown and lis obverse, cross reverse), even if it is not an exact match: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6124341Probably very low grade billon which can look like bronze or copper |
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
847 Posts |
Hi Tdziema, Thank you for your reply aswell.
Diameter 21mm
Weight: 1,21 grams
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
That makes more sense.
TVRONVS CIVIS or TVRONVS FRANCIE or DVPLEX TVRONVS or something like that might then be expected
I was looking in Feodales, not Royales
Reminds me of a Double Tournois of, say, Charles V or VI or something contemporary to that era (mid 15th c.)
If it's Italian, 21mm is about the size of, e.g., a grosso or sestino. Liege, 21mm brūle?
The cross pattee with the simple circle (not lobed) is another thing that makes me think this is not 16th c. or later
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7933 Posts |
Obverse looks like there is ... RV ... or NV obverse 4:00. If RV could fit with FRANCORVM, though maybe not expected over on that part of the coin. The Sicily hypothesis may not be worth pursuing, as these types seem to always have IERI ET SICIL reverse (and are smaller).  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I just know in the back of my mind I've seen that obverse before on a denier tournois/double, Italian quattrino or something similar, but I'm getting older and the whole memory thing is a little less clear.
I spent a lot of time browsing Duplessy F. & R. books to see if I could find a match but nothing precise.
That odd, round-bottomed crown HAS to be fairly distinctive.
Perhaps if @Erafjel or @Sap come across this thread, they might have further input.
Edit: I started browsing coins of, e.g. Belgian States, and that might be another possibility as well.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
08/24/2024 09:26 am
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Pillar of the Community
Sweden
2124 Posts |
I have looked at it for a good while, but I cannot nail it. I imagine I can read MV on the obverse, 4-5 o'clock, so I looked at coins for Aedmund and similar, to no avail.
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Moderator
 United States
34395 Posts |
Hmm lots of smart folk struggling to find an ID makes me feel better that I've been striking out too. I pursued the possibility of this being a jeton, since many of them include both crowns and lis (lises?) in their designs.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Lis is correct, the plural is fleurs-de-lis.
I checked Belgian States and Dutch States. Nothing.
The reverse is too common (encircled short cross pattee with empty quadrants) and looks more 14th-15th c. than what is seen on earlier deniers, oboles, etc.
There are certainly contemporary royal issues with a crown and lis (e.g. double tournois of Charles & Philippe) but they are usually stacked with the crown above the lis, not side-to-side horizontally.
Spence - Jetons or mereaux might be possibilities, too, so you may be on to something there, but I can't recall any I've seen with such a typically "coin"-style reverse. You could try to deep dive Feuardent, but that's a daunting task. Look for Jeton de compte - but many that I see in a quick search have tri-lobar or quadri-lobar encirclements for the reverse cross.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
08/24/2024 5:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7933 Posts |
Yes, it's about the right size for a Low Countries double mite/mijten, and they have short crosses like this, but even when a Low Countries type copied the design elements of a French type, they tended to use the standard local legends. If anyone has an appetite to look through all the plates at the back of each volume of Van der Chijs, that would nail it for sure  . But he (Van der Chijs) didn't cover Liege. There were Bourbon bishops of Liege (fleur-de-lis heraldry), but I don't think a crown was used on Liege coins on account of its being a bishopric. Miters, cardinal's caps and so on tended to show up. There were some northern Italian states that made blatant copies of French royal types. Desana made liards intended to look like those of Henry III: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12935840, and double tournois: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7884015But I haven't run across a type meant to look like this. Edited by tdziemia
08/24/2024 8:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
847 Posts |
Thank you all for your support and comments!
I was not able to find it in VanHoud literature which has Liege aswell in it unfotunately and not in vanderchijs plates doing a quick search. I remember looking in hmz aswell but no match. The suggestion about italy or an imitation I did like but indeed you would think rather a mite or double mite first. Then we go to flandres or liege. They have many imitations after coins from the 15th century.
An interesting thing is you can also see a diamond shape between the lis and crown aswell.
Are there specific other books regarding imitations?
When we look at a Charles V le sage franc a pied gold coin. You have a cross with right a crown and left a fleur de lis. Perhaps an imitation after his coinage?
I don't know any jetons that have these characteristics.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
It might be a contemporary imitative issue. It's too light to pass for gold, even plated, though.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
847 Posts |
I understand what you mean. I ment more in sense of the period , because of some similarities.
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Pillar of the Community
Netherlands
847 Posts |
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Replies: 19 / Views: 1,800 |
Posted 08/22/2024 09:05 am
