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 Replies: 52 / Views: 4,549 |
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Valued Member
 United States
184 Posts |
Quote:It may have been a deliberate omission by the seller, but not necessarily negligent. If someone buys a graded coin believing that it was severely undergraded, then has it regraded or crossed over to a higher grade at a different TPG, I don't see why he would be under any obligation to disclose the prior grade. It may now be the grade he believes is accurate. As far as Heritage, even though the prior sales of the PCGS-graded coin were also at Heritage, the coins aren't cross-referenced. So they would need to look at photos of past sales of similar coins in various grades to see if they can identify a matching coin. There probably aren't many 1787 NJ coppers that sold there, but I doubt it's something they can realistically do on all their listed coins. A potential buyer can do the research to inform his own opinion, but I don't believe the auction house should be obligated to provide all past provenance. Agree with all your points, assuming there are no legal obligations by either the seller or HA. Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 6:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
674 Posts |
I think people should not pay much attention to what is called census numbers, from any provenance. Those are never certain, at any time more coins can be announced. They can be found or they can already be in unrecorded collections. Unless you know the original mintage for certain and it was minuscule, someone telling you known numbers today is not telling anything solid.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10595 Posts |
Buying high priced un-slabbed coins is risky business (crap shoot). Wether you have provenance of previous gradings or not. Hope it turns out best for you!
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Quote:
Buying high priced un-slabbed coins is risky business (crap shoot). This was an NGC slabbed coin. |
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Moderator
United States
34427 Posts |
@njcopper, I know that you aren't asking CCF folks to provide their thoughts on the grade, but I think that it could be educational to preserve images of this coin in the thread so I'm uploading this:  Please correct me if I've got the wrong one. Thx. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Quote:
I think people should not pay much attention to what is called census numbers, from any provenance. Those are never certain, at any time more coins can be announced. They can be found or they can already be in unrecorded collections. Unless you know the original mintage for certain and it was minuscule, someone telling you known numbers today is not telling anything solid. This is true. And it's certainly true for coins that are at or near the top of their known population. Today's coin king (#1 graded) with multiples of value away from #2 could become tomorrow's #2 (or worse) if one better is discovered somewhere. But if you put two identical looking and same graded slabbed coins side by side, the one with the more distinguished provenance usually commends (and receives) a much higher price. And some varieties which only number a handful of specimens in the UNC grade, those specimens are tracked and traded by "name" as provenance becomes an integral part of their price. There is a reason why a few coins near the very top of their niche are cited (for example) by such as "The Choice AU Eliasberg Maris 62-q". They are well documented in numismatic publications and are referred by a name instead of a generic designation...along with other identically graded coins. Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 7:40 pm
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 8:54 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10595 Posts |
Quote:
This was an NGC slabbed coin. Oops, my bad. Now that I look at the pictures I can see that. |
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 10:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1502 Posts |
Since provenance is such an integral component of the price one is willing to pay, I would suggest making direct contact with HA. Lay out the timeline and put the ball in their court. Rather than losing any sleep over it, ask them how they want to resolve it.
Regardless of what the HA contract might state, I'm willing to bet a lawyer would eat this up as Material Misrepresentation - HA as a proxy for the seller.
I swing a metal detector and have a knack for finding dirty old coins. Dirt coin restoration projects - https://www.prodetecting.com/restorationsDirt coin restoration blog - https://www.prodetecting.com/blog/ccawDirt coin dig videos - https://www.youtube.com/@prodetecting |
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Quote:
Should HA have reported the background? If they knew, perhaps. In the interest of full disclosure, it would be great if they did. But given the degree of variance, I can see why they might not, especially if it would impact their buyer's premium, and moreso if there was any uncertainty in the conclusion. =================================================== Quote:
Since provenance is such an integral component of the price one is willing to pay, I would suggest making direct contact with HA. Lay out the timeline and put the ball in their court. Rather than losing any sleep over it, ask them how they want to resolve it.
Regardless of what the HA contract might state, I'm willing to bet a lawyer would eat this up as Material Misrepresentation - HA as a proxy for the seller. The coin was acquired by a buyer on 18 Aug 2024 on a HA auction as a PCGS coin. Three weeks later, on 11 Sep 2024, it was graded by NGC. Two months later it was put up for auction (on HA again) in November. If the seller is the same in November as the buyer in August, then its near certain that that person broke the slab. Was he obligated to disclose this to HA? Was HA suppsoed to look at this person's prior transactions with them for the same variety coin, and if yes, were they obligated to disclose that? This is what HA "Terms and Conditions" says about slabbed coins (took out the relevant sections):
COINS & CURRENCY TERM G: Since we cannot examine encapsulated coins or notes, they are sold "as is" without our grading opinion, and may not be returned for any reason. Auctioneer shall not be liable for any patent or latent defect or controversy pertaining to or arising from any encapsulated collectible. In any such instance, purchaser's remedy, if any, shall be solely against the service certifying the collectible.COINS & CURRENCY TERM I: Although consensus grading is employed by most grading services, it should be noted as aforesaid that grading is not an exact science. In fact, it is entirely possible that if a lot is broken out of a plastic holder and resubmitted to another grading service or even to the same service, the lot could come back with a different grade assigned.COINS & CURRENCY TERM M: NOTE: Purchasers of rare coins or currency through Heritage have available the option of arbitration by the Professional Numismatists Guild (PNG); if an election is not made within ten (10) days of an unresolved dispute, Auctioneer may elect either PNG or A.A.A. Arbitration.The only mention of provenance in HA's terms applies only to historical/memorabilia. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
As far as the NGC grading: The auction links to " NGC's guarantee" https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-gradin...c-guarantee/" ....an NGC holder is guaranteed to be: "Not overgraded (meaning that they are not graded higher than NGC's Grading Standards)"An owner of an NGC-certified Coin ("Owner") who believes the Coin is overgraded or not genuine shall submit it for evaluation under NGC's "Appearance Review" service. ....... ...... Remedies for Coins that are Not Genuine or are Overgraded. If Guarantor determines, in its sole reasonable opinion, that (a) the Coin (other than an NGC Ancients-graded Coin) is not genuine or (b) that the correct grade for the Coin is lower than the one originally assigned, Guarantor will offer one of the three remedies described below. The choice of remedy will be made by Guarantor in its sole discretion, and the remedies are subject to the further limitations set forth below. Current Fair Market Value is determined solely by Guarantor as described in each of the listed remedies and the "Fair Market Value" paragraph that follows.
Guarantor may (a) return the Coin to Owner encapsulated with a label indicating the newly established correct (lower) grade and (b) pay to Owner the lesser of (i) the difference between the Declared Value of the Coin as stated by Owner on the submission form for Appearance Review and the current Fair Market Value of the Coin at the newly established correct (lower) grade; (ii) the difference between the current Fair Market Value of an accurately graded Coin at the original incorrect (higher) grade and the current Fair Market Value of the Coin at the newly established correct (lower) grade; or (iii) the difference between the amount actually paid for the Coin by Owner in an actual arm's length transaction and the current Fair Market Value of the Coin at the newly established correct (lower) grade.
Alternatively, Guarantor may purchase the Coin from Owner. Guarantor will pay the lesser of (i) the Declared Value of the Coin as stated by Owner on the submission form for Appearance Review; (ii) the Fair Market Value of an accurately graded, genuine Coin at the original incorrect grade; or (iii) the amount actually paid for the Coin by Owner in an actual arm's length transaction.
Alternatively, Guarantor may retain the not genuine or overgraded Coin and provide to Owner in its place an equivalent Coin that is genuine and has the same grade as originally assigned to the Coin.
Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 10:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7292 Posts |
If the coin on the last post is the one you purchased it does not look like an MS61. I would not buy it and I live in NJ and have these in my want list.
As far as NGC grading guarantee, I've used it and been very satisfied, but in no way is that coin an MS61. I would cancel my bid and look for a different one.
Edited by hfjacinto
11/22/2024 10:14 pm
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Valued Member
United States
184 Posts |
Quote:
If the coin on the last post is the one you purchased it does not look like an MS61. I would not buy it. The "Fine" graded coin in the last post with the "WM" fully showing is a different variety. It last sold for $264,000. It was minted with the original die with Mould's initials He had to re-punch to hide his "WM" initials, and that variety is the coin I bought. The zoomed photo of the hidden "WM" that is below that full-WM coin is of my coin. My coin was posted by @spence and @JohnConduitt Here it is: https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...Bids-101116#Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 10:21 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1502 Posts |
Quote:
The only mention of provenance in HA's terms applies only to historical/memorabilia Forget about what the contract says about provenance. Misrepresentation voids any contract. If HA (as a proxy) stated the incorrect provenance as part of the coin's listing - and you can prove otherwise (cracker same as seller) - that is a misrepresentation, period. I swing a metal detector and have a knack for finding dirty old coins. Dirt coin restoration projects - https://www.prodetecting.com/restorationsDirt coin restoration blog - https://www.prodetecting.com/blog/ccawDirt coin dig videos - https://www.youtube.com/@prodetecting |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7292 Posts |
Your coin posted doesn't look like ms61 either. But I have to ask, do you want the coin? Do you think the price is fair? Are you happy with the price/look?
If yes then buy it and don't worry about the old grades.
If the answer is no, don't buy it and we are done.
I don't think it's Heritages fault, they sold a coin at a specific grade, you made the bids.
Edited by hfjacinto
11/22/2024 10:37 pm
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Replies: 52 / Views: 4,549 |
First Page
Posted 11/22/2024 6:30 pm
