Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Laser-Altered High End Coins Caught At Auction

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 16 / Views: 2,438Next Topic
Page: of 2
Valued Member
joe_77's Avatar
Italy
284 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  03:53 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add joe_77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I recently listened to a talk given at a numismatic event in Italy (youtube.com/watch?v=idMEq11QePk&t=1460) where an interesting series of discoveries were presented by the Swiss Numismatic Dealers Association which I believe merit being shared.

In early 2024, a series of high condition 1600-1800 silver coins were put up for auction in Switzerland, you can see them here: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=7664

Being in very nice conditions, with pretty patina and lucent fields, these peaked a lot of interest and some dealers went to look at them in real life; you can see a video here: youtube.com/watch?v=idMEq11QePk&t=1625 (low quality).

Upon enquiring on provenance, it was noted that all these coins were consigned by a single young man (verbatim translation "Chinese young man") and some further research found that some of these coins were previously sold at other auctions while being in much worse condition. Here's an example:

Laser-Altered-High-End-Coins-Caught-At-Auction

Coins were then withdrawn from the auction and returned to seller. What had happened became apparent: coins at low(er) conservation were laser-altered to boost conditions, a heavy patina was applied (unsure if as a result of the process or to cover it up) and coins were then re-entered in the market.

Once this was discovered, the dealers started to look at past/current auctions with coins in similar condition and similar heavy patina and saw several examples outside of the auction that started it. In other words: low quality coins bought for few hundreds dollars then laser-altered, patinated and sold for thousands after a while.

They noted that this trend seemed to have started around 2020 and if it weren't for the "mistake" of consigning so many together, they would have probably gone undetected, much like it was for other auctions.

On a particular interesting note, they mentioned that some currently slabbed coins were also found.. so it seems this process did sometime fool the TPGs which slabbed the altered coins without catching the altered surfaces.

Obviously it is worth noting that all coins are 100% authentic despite undergoing this process.

Edited by joe_77
11/23/2024 03:55 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7934 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for this interesting and informative post.

It must be challenging to work in an auction house and need to keep up with "developments" like this in the field.

I have one coin in my collection that seems a bit too attractve for its age of almost 300 years (though the price was very modest, not even 3 figures in dollars if I recall correctly). I wonder if it could have been treated like this, though it does not have the patination seen on those others.
Bedrock of the Community
Coinfrog's Avatar
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks much for this indeed.
Pillar of the Community
ArrowsAndRays's Avatar
United States
1653 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ArrowsAndRays to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How does a laser "boost the condition" of a coin?
Valued Member
joe_77's Avatar
Italy
284 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe_77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How does a laser "boost the condition" of a coin?


The talk doesn't really go into details but I believe they are talking about laser tooling, which has been done on ancients for many years. They seem to imply it's a new thing for modern coins and/or in this particular usage.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
7934 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  5:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That was also my guess.
Outside of numismatics I think it's called laser ablation.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4588 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would guess it's a process like this:
ACGSzBXKONo
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
Marv65's Avatar
United States
10485 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Marv65 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What next? I can see one day that rare coins will be "built" by highly advanced 3-D printing machines.
https://www.lboro.ac.uk/research/am...nufacturing/
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 11/26/2024  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What a strange thing. The coin on the right looks worse.

But I always suspect dark patinas in silver hiding something. Too common.
Valued Member
joe_77's Avatar
Italy
284 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2024  02:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe_77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What a strange thing. The coin on the right looks worse.


The coin I posted above was the easiest one to show with a side-by-side from the presentation. It's this coin (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...4&lot=1179):

Laser-Altered-High-End-Coins-Caught-At-Auction

I personally don't like the toning on both those Victoria Crowns either (the crown above was the one that looked most suspicious and they found the whole ordeal out thanks to it) but I encourage you all to see the video I posted above, those coins looks very nice in real life! They have a very convincing approximation of the classical "coin drawer" patina.

Just copy past this in your browser, it starts at the right time: youtube.com/watch?v=idMEq11QePk&t=1625

Cheers
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2024  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. With that big image it is easier to see how it was done to hide the wear on the coin.Nasty.
Valued Member
United States
60 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2025  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add LandonM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Super interesting, but shouldn't really come as any shock.
Every single 'collectibles' market that assigns arbitrary value to things suffers from forgers, fakers and deceivers who employ technical talents to alter things to appear as something other than what they are (you should see the lengths they go to with high end art forgeries). There was a time when 'whizzing' was fairly new and smoking 60's/70's collectors, but that's very detectable if you know what to look for.

After a while, it gets into 'my grandfathers axe' type philosophical questions; if these alterations can be done so discretely and effectively that they're truly undetectable at face value... well... like it or not, we're all going to be living with them, because they'll be done and they cannot be detected... and as is the case with all problems like this, we've probably been living with this for longer than we realize.

That was the case with 'coin conservation' that was once considered a taboo, but eventually became accepted once people realized it had always been going on, all along.
Edited by LandonM
02/18/2025 2:52 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2025  02:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Back in the 1990's they had a short rash of alterers using lasers to do a very localized melting of the surface on gold coins to repair nicks and other contact marks on MS gold coins to make them mark free in order to increase their grades Since in general gold coins don't tone there was no patina to disturb. It could only be used on small marks because if you did it to large marks the disruption in the surface luster would be noticeable.

And how many remember the use of putty on gold coins to hide marks. Those actually got into PCGS an NGC slabs and were discovered several years later when th putty discolored.
Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
94992 Posts
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
187702 Posts
  Previous TopicReplies: 16 / Views: 2,438Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.47 seconds to rattle this change. Forums