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Identification Help Needed Please-Possible Medieval?

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 Posted 05/24/2025  11:47 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add thecoinauthority to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I found this in a bag of mixed foreign. Trying to identify but have struck out using reference material on hand and even Google Lens. Size is approximately 19mm, and appears to be made of copper or bronze. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


Identification-Help-Needed-Please-Possible-Medieval?
Identification-Help-Needed-Please-Possible-Medieval?
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Sap's Avatar
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 Posted 05/25/2025  04:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mediaeval it certainly is. I'm leaning towards an Italian state, possibly French feudal.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 05/25/2025  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mylimebug to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Possibly Lucca
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 Posted 05/25/2025  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thecoinauthority to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might be right on the Italian--I found this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces457797.html

It's close, but not identical. Not sure if that means anything.

If anyone knows for sure or can point me to a resource where I might be able to identify, please let me know.

Or even if someone can give me rough age and value, that would also be appreciated. Thanks again.
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 Posted 05/25/2025  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add samoth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The primary French feudal reference would be Duplessy. Italian would be CNI, but I'd go with the Italian MEC volumes first to see if it fits that country.

Value is likely nominal unless it's a specific rarity, for which you'll need a primary reference to drill down a formal attribution beyond type.
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 Posted 05/26/2025  07:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm also leaning toward Italian.
The first photo is very typical of an Italian medieval design, where there is a legend around the rim with the final three letters in the center. It's often the place name. (maybe it's nGA or nCA in the center?). Possibly also REX at 6:00-8:00 on that side?

And, yes, it looks like a K on the other side. Possibly the legend on that side is KAROLVS, but some of the letters don;t look quite right. Regardless, we might be looking for a place with a ruler named Charles, or Charles who was king in one place, but struck this type in another (for instance, a Charles who was king of France, but ruled over a part of Italy).

There were Charles (Angevin) who ruled Sicily, but there the legend is often REX IERL SICIL.
SOme paths to follow ...



Edited by tdziemia
05/27/2025 07:21 am
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 Posted 05/26/2025  08:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did not find anything in MEC 12 (Northern Italy).
I suppose it could also be an R for Robert?
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 Posted 05/26/2025  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm reading the lettering on the lower right (3-7h) of the second pic as CHOL, which Numista tells me can only be part of the name "Nicholas" [i.e. Niccolo, in an Italian context].
I think the traces of the preceding letters (at 12-2h) are consistent with [NI]CHOL, and the next letter might be an A but it doesn't have to be.

Currently looking through the 67 pages of Italian States coinage on Numista to check if there's anything that looks like a match. IIRC there were a few similar central letters to the second pic, but so far no match to the center of the first pic (which I can't make any sense of anyway).
I'll probably check the awkwardly separated Papal States next, then maybe try French...
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 Posted 05/26/2025  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm reading the lettering on the lower right (3-7h) of the second pic as CHOL, which Numista tells me can only be part of the name "Nicholas" [i.e. Niccolo, in an Italian context].
I think the traces of the preceding letters (at 12-2h) are consistent with [NI]CHOL, and the next letter might be an A but it doesn't have to be.

Good catch! Even though I have a couple of Italian coins with NIChOL on them, I didn't think of this, and looks like a good possibility.

In addition to a ruler's name Nicholas, we should also remember some medieval coins had their'patron saint's name in a legened like this.
So, S nICHOL... for saint Nicholas, or nICHOL.. EPS for bishop Nicholas, etc.
I think places related to Saint Nicholas include Fribourg, Switzerland, Bari and Sabbioneta, Italy (you have a coin from there?)

My guess on the first picture is three letters around a central pellet. I had thought maybe n, G, A (or V), but I wonder if the two lower ones could be alpha (A) and omega?

Added: I checked in CNI the coins of the two Nicholas/Niccolos who ruled as marquesses of Ferrara in the 14th/15th century. The only coins that were of similar size and design to the coin posted here are these two:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces238962.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces144718.html

None of the other (smaller) denominations have the large single letter on one side, and the three small letters (rather than 4) around a pellet on the other side.

There was a Pope Nicholas V in the mid-15th century who struck a number of coins, mostly larger denominations. Conceivably the legend in the first photo could read nICHOLAVS P Q for Nicholaus P(apa) Q(vintvs), but it then makes you wonder what the large Ietter in th middle could be (could it be a large n?). This coin struck under Nicholas has nIcOLAVS PP QVInTVS, but has a very typically French medieval design (cross reverse),
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces310913.html
whereas the poster's coin has what looks to me like a typically central Italy bolognino design.






Edited by tdziemia
05/27/2025 08:01 am
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 Posted 05/27/2025  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm reading the lettering on the lower right (3-7h) of the second pic as CHOL
I'm actually less convinced of it now; the second letter (which I read as H) seems to have an apostrophe after it, so that the legend could be ...C[H]' OL... in two words. Not that I can find any good matches for that either.
(I also can't make any sense of the preceding squiggle except as the final part of a N or M... but NC[H]'OL or MC[H]'OL makes no sense either.)

On the other side the legible legend at 5-9h is ...:R'RE[X]... with a clear colon before the first R and fairly low confidence in the X. This doesn't obviously match anything either (and, AFAIK, there's not a lot of reasons for REX to appear on an Italian coin of that period in the first place).

I think the big central letter can be any of A K R, but probably not N. I can't quite read the small central letters, and I'm not even sure which way up they are.

Quote:
whereas the poster's coin has what looks to me like a typically central Italy bolognino design.

I'll try to check some bolognini at Lamoneta...
[EDIT: I tried and couldn't find anything relevant.]
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 Posted 05/27/2025  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thecoinauthority to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you everyone so far for the help! I've taken another look at the coin and hoping to provide my impressions as we try to decipher the lettering/symbols:

On the side with the 3 letters/symbols in the middle circle, I don't think they are greek lettering, although 2 of them could be lower case alpha (a) and eta (n). Depending on how you orient the coin, the letters to me appear to be U G and either H or V (if you orient with 2 letters at top and 1 on bottom). If you rotate with 1 letter on top, it appears to be more like A D N, but this orientation makes less sense to me. Along the rim starting at 6 o'clock (using 2 letters on top orientation): X V A (or possibly III) ? ? G (maybe) ? ? ? : R 2 (decorative symbol) R E

So it does seem that at least part of the lettering would spell REX, and if the lettering is VIII that might be the king?

On the side with the single letter in the middle circle, that letter appears to be R or K. It's very hard to see if the top loop is joined or separate, but as best I can tell it's joined, and R is the most likely candidate. Along the rim starting at 6 o'clock, lettering appears to be: O L ? 2 (probably a decorative symbol--similar to what is on the other side) O P O ? ? O (it appears this letter may have been double stampled because there is a faint C connecting to the next letter, but not at strong as other letters and not complete) H/K

Hopefully this helps--if I can provide better photos of anything please let me know. Even if this coin isn't worth much, I would like to at least know more about it!

Thanks everyone!
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 Posted 05/27/2025  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the letters to me appear to be U G and either H or V

For the most part U was represented as V back then (1300-1500), so that's a less likely choice. But yes, it's tough to nail this down because of the questionable orientations.
One wild possibility is that they are AnG for the house of Anjou ... There were several Angevin kings of Sicily in the 13-14th centuries ... Including two named Charles and one named Robert, which gives us options to link the large letter on one side with his family name on the other (KAROLVS or ROBERTVS ANDEGAVENSIS , and the word REX appearing on the coin.

But that would make it a type that has not yet been found by any of us. I will try to do a dive into CNI Vol. XIX and see if anything shows up.

Can't rule out a contemporary counterfiet either.




Edited by tdziemia
05/27/2025 3:35 pm
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 Posted 05/27/2025  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thecoinauthority to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After playing with the orientation and using additional magnification, I'm now inclined to believe the 3 center letters are A D N, with the A at the top, reading counter-clockwise. There also appears to be an intentional dot in the inner circle that breaks up the circle, and it aligns vertically at the 6 o'clock position when orienting with the A(?) at the top.

Along the perimeter, I now see :, R, (symbol that is similar to ?), R, E, X, V, M(maybe), and another 3-4 letters I can't distinguish before the :

On the other side I would guess with 99.9% certainty the inner circle letter is R. Starting at 3 o'clock, it now appears to be a, H, O, L, n, (symbol that looks like ?), a, P, and another 3 letters I can't distinguish.

I of course could be way off, but if it opens some new doors I hope it helps.

I've been dealing coins for 20+ years, but my specialty is US and not ancient/medieval. That being said, I don't get a counterfeit vibe from the coin--it appears to have all the indications of an original coin from the way it was struck, etc. Even if it turns out to be counterfeit, wouldn't it be duplicating a known design and therefore be easier to match up? Either way, my curiosity has been peaked!

I'll try to get some better photos tomorrow.
Edited by thecoinauthority
05/27/2025 8:23 pm
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 Posted 05/27/2025  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well I was convinced that the three center letter on the reverse were ACN, but now I'm not so sure since the letter C seems backwards. Also, any thoughts that the number 9 might be a sigla for "CON"?

https://goccf.com/t/372281


Identification-Help-Needed-Please-Possible-Medieval?
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 Posted 05/28/2025  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd also thought of that "9" being this type of symbol, but thought I recalled that at the end of a word it can also stand for -US (end of the thread you linked where there is a coin with name Sylvius as SYLVI9). And I am re-considering my guess that one of the three letters is a G ... more likely a C. That could give AnC, which makes one think of Ancona, but no luck (though they made plenty of coins with a large letter A on one side and three or four small letters in center of the other side)

For what it's worth, I looked in CNI XIX at coins from Naples from Charles I and Charles III, and I did find a coin of Chares III with a large K on one side with legend AROLVS TERCIVS REX but it has a cross on the reverse, as do pretty much all of the coins from that place in that era.
A later ruler, Rene has a coin with a large crowned R, but the legend starting with RENATVS is not a match.

Likewise I've not yet found a match for Sicilian coins under the rules of Angevin kings.
So maybe I need to let go of that idea.




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