New Chinese Seller Of Counterfeits

hey swamperbob can you tell us you noticed to relize they were a fake I am looking for a free eduction. thanks

The first coin listed is a 1793 counterfeit http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404158819
- the shield (Obverse in Mexican terms) is one I have seen in person. There is a trace of the seam still visible above the assayer initials FM and at a few points along the edge. The coin itself is cast.

The second coin purports to be a rare 1778 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404157929
However, the portrait is that of Charles III not his father Charles III. The engraver removed the last I in the Roman Numeral and changed the date. The Charles IIII portrait was used from 1791 to 1808.

The third coin purports to be an 1806 Mo with assayer initials HJ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404157211
That combination is simply not possible. It is found associated only with Ferdinand VII coins dated 1809 and later. The coin has a large casting seam on the shield side (Obverse) above the crown. This is one of many muled copies made by the Chinese in error. They have many dies and often get them mixed up.

The fourth coin a 1776 Mo FF http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404155658
is a counterfeit that I know very well. I own 4 different date coins that use this identical shield die. There is a rim weakness above and to the right of the crown. That is the first tip off. In person there are many lines in the fields that simply do not belong on this coin. They are scratches on the surface of the die. Many of the bigger ones that used to be visible on scans have been removed on the finished product. The originals I own are Sterling Silver.

The fifth coin a 1772 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404154218 is another altered original. The host coin is a Charles IIII with the last I erased and a new date. In 1772 Charles III was King.

The sixth coin an 1802 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404153562 is one where the seam is once again visible on the obverse and it has a soft dull surface that really looks like a casting. This is a die (1802) that I have not seen in person.

The final coin is an 1808 Mo HJ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m=8404152303
In this case, the date is ONE year too early to exist. The HJ assayer was first used in 1809. The portrait is correct for an 1808 Ferdinand VII - it is an imaginary one. The King's true appearance was not yet known in Mexico so they made one up.

If anyone has any other questions just ask. Most could be identified with a copy of Krause's book "World Coins".

Until you know these varieties, it might be best to avoid auctions from China. Some real coins do come out of China but VERY few.

thanks for the free education everyone

In China - counterfeiting is NOT illegal. It is considered art and they copy anything and everything of value. So Chinese forgeries of many coin varieties are documented. There are also forgers who take orders for dies of any coin you want them to make. They can work from an original coin or from a picture - but of course the copies from pictures are rather crude.

If you post high resolution pictures of any "suspect" coins someone on this forum can likely give you a quick answer, since there are so many different interests represented.

Most counterfeit Dragon Dollars are white metal and weigh 20-22 grams. They are modern copies that are nearly worthless - except to guys like me. They date from WWII to the 1980s for the most part. But some varieties are still in production. I have seen very few counterfeits of this type that are actually silver, so weight will usually expose the fraud. Some are made overly thick to gain the correct weight, but Specific Gravity will show that error.

Original Dragon Dollars vary in weight but tend to be in the 25-27 gram range when MS. If the coin is significantly light weight it is a forgery period. If the coin is the correct weight but looks odd check the edge - many of these forgeries are edged by forcing the nearly finished coin through a reeded ring die. This scrapes reeds into the edge of the coin. The coin is then finished by grinding the edge to face transitions to remove evidence of the reed application. Clues are in the reeds themselves - they often have split ends or are hollow looking. Also look for a rounded transition from edge to face that has file marks or parallel scratches.

Hope this helps.

It is not only Canadian sellers that re-sell Chinese material. There are a couple from NYC, one from Maryland and another from California that seem to handle large numbers of Chinese made fakes. Outside the country - Indonesia, Macau and Hong Kong are other re-sellers.

But that only covers the repeat frauds - then there are the guys that get taken and are just trying to recover their money. I met one at a Flea Market here in North Carolina last week. He had bought a bunch of Chinese fakes at $20 each and he is now trying to peddle them. I made him a reasonable offer, but he said he couldn't afford to lose money. I feel sorry for him but they are worth $10 or less each.

I was spoofed by a seller on ebay that was selling old handcraved bar I a go thing the wan was only equal $1.97.

Good eye, bob. I wouldn't touch those 8 reales with a 10 foot pole - even the chopmarked host coins look funny. The tell with this type is often in the denticles, I have learned. In all those cases, were the coins authentic, I would expect to see much more definition in that department - although it's not a perfect tell, it's a good place to start.

In your first example, the details of the counterfeit would make the coin about XF, and yet half the denticles on the obverse (from 12 to 7) are obliterated - dead giveaway, in most cases. It's possible, when dealing with worn dies, etc., but pretty unlikely to develope to that extent.