Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. 300,000 items to help build your collection!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1803 Charles IIIi 8 Reales Is It Real?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,205Next Topic  
New Member
markustg's Avatar
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2025  09:49 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add markustg to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello all at CCF, this is my first post here

I have started to collect 8 Reales, both Mexican Silver 8 Reales Cap & Rays and Spanish Empire Silver 8 Reales Portrait & Pillars.

I have learned through links in this forum that of course the Spanish Empire Silver 8 Reales Portrait & Pillars coins have been counterfited for years, both old and modern versions.

So I did just buy the book - Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales: The Un-Real Reales by Robert Gurney, but I thought I would post the Charles IIII that I have for opinions.

So what do you think? Real or copy?

Thanks!


1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
1803-Charles-IIIi-8-Reales-Is-It-Real?
Edited by markustg
07/03/2025 11:30 am
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
188046 Posts
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
5394 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2025  11:33 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks authentic!
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
HondoB's Avatar
United States
25071 Posts
 Posted 07/03/2025  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HondoB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF, markustg. It looks good to me too. Nice photos, by the way!
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
Pillar of the Community
Greasy Fingers's Avatar
United States
7010 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2025  10:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob was our go to guy on these counterfiets (however hes been gone for over a year...) might want to click on some of his old posts.
Moderator
Learn More...
nickelsearcher's Avatar
United States
15403 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2025  06:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts
 Posted 07/08/2025  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My interest is on 8 reales overstruck in Brazil. But can say I see nothing untoward in yours. 1803 is a common year. There is excess metal near the castle on the right. But it can easily have been from a bump the die suffered.
Valued Member
Philippines
80 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2025  05:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fireandice556 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Same observation, coin looks ok. The rim pattern is correct and normal.

Bob's book is quite amazing. Most of the CC as listed on the book had notable observable deviations from the regular series. You coin has no indication of those irregularities.

Carolus IIII series, both from Mexico and Bolivia, and to certain extend from Lima are relatively common.

Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 07/15/2025  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another interesting observation - what caused those fissures by the date area? Metallurgical Mechanism Behind the Fissures
- Lead-Induced Embrittlement: Lead (Pb), when present even in trace amounts, can segregate along grain boundaries in silver alloys. This weakens intergranular cohesion, especially during thermal cycles like annealing or striking.
- Silver's Susceptibility: Unlike copper, silver is particularly vulnerable to Pb-induced embrittlement. The result? Brittle fracture zones that manifest as planchet fissures, often radial or linear, and frequently near high-strain areas like the date or bust truncation.
#129514; Historical Context and Alloy Behavior
- Colonial Minting Practices: Spanish colonial mints often used recycled silver — including melted-down coinage, jewelry, and even ecclesiastical silver — which could introduce lead contamination from solder or refining residues.
- Poor Alloy Homogenization: Inconsistent mixing and primitive refining could leave Pb-rich inclusions, especially in lower-quality planchets struck during periods of economic strain or war.
Lead's Role in Silver Ore Refining
- Smelting Phase: Silver ores, especially those rich in galena (PbS), were smelted with lead to form a metallic mixture. The silver dissolved into the molten lead, forming an argentiferous lead alloy — a convenient intermediary.
- Cupellation: This alloy was then heated in a porous crucible under an oxidizing environment. Lead oxidized to litharge (PbO), which was absorbed by the cupel or evaporated, leaving behind metallic silver.
- Efficiency Boost: Adding lead deliberately (even when the original ore wasn't rich in Pb) helped extract silver more completely. Lead acts as a solvent for precious metals, facilitating separation from base materials.
#127994; Historical Practice Insights
- Spanish colonial smelting sites — particularly in Zacatecas and Potosí — routinely added lead to help recover silver from complex ores. The practice was well documented in 16th-19th century mining manuals.
- Poor control over the Pb quantity or cupellation residue could leave trace lead in the final silver product, which, as you've noted, contributes to embrittlement and fissures in later-struck coinage.
So yes, not only was lead present — it was often purposefully introduced into the metallurgy chain. If you're mapping coin metallurgical anomalies to refining methods, this link is worth spotlighting. Want to dig into Saiger Silver extraction next for contrast?
Lead's Role in Silver Ore Refining
- Smelting Phase: Silver ores, especially those rich in galena (PbS), were smelted with lead to form a metallic mixture. The silver dissolved into the molten lead, forming an argentiferous lead alloy — a convenient intermediary.
- Cupellation: This alloy was then heated in a porous crucible under an oxidizing environment. Lead oxidized to litharge (PbO), which was absorbed by the cupel or evaporated, leaving behind metallic silver.
- Efficiency Boost: Adding lead deliberately (even when the original ore wasn't rich in Pb) helped extract silver more completely. Lead acts as a solvent for precious metals, facilitating separation from base materials.
#127994; Historical Practice Insights
- Spanish colonial smelting sites — particularly in Zacatecas and Potosí — routinely added lead to help recover silver from complex ores. The practice was well documented in 16th-19th century mining manuals.
- Poor control over the Pb quantity or cupellation residue could leave trace lead in the final silver product, which, as you've noted, contributes to embrittlement and fissures in later-struck coinage.
So yes, not only was lead present — it was often purposefully introduced into the metallurgy chain.
Coin BTW looks genuine <BG>. John Lorenzo.
Edited by colonialjohn
07/15/2025 4:10 pm
  Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 1,205Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.37 seconds to rattle this change. Forums