| Author |
 Replies: 14 / Views: 1,408 |
|
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
I would like to ask for your thoughts on what seems to me to be an overweight Carlos and Juana gold escudo. Thank you all!   |
|
|
|
Moderator
 United States
34393 Posts |
@abe, can you please confirm that the coin weighs what the flip is saying (3.50g)? Thx.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
Valued Member
 Philippines
64 Posts |
Hi @spence
Yes. my friend who owns the coin told me so. I also asked him if it really is 3.5 for it is 0.2g heavier than what I usually knows them to be. I was also told that another collector friend of ours bought this coin from Paul Brombal, a coin dealer in the US.
Thank you.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
7933 Posts |
Regardless of the weight, to me it looks like a G for Granada to the left of the coat of arms.
Maybe there was a lot of variation across mints, but I'm not impressed by the look of the reverse. Cross is kind of scrawny, the lettering is irregular, and I'm not finding simple annulets at the interior points of the quadrilobe on other Granada (or Toledo) examples.
Better to have one of our experts on these chime in.
Edited by tdziemia
08/18/2025 08:06 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Irregularities could happen but with gold you should always assume overweight gold coins are false until you can be convinced otherwise.That excess weight can be explained in some way? Change of the official weight of this type of coin over time?
I am seeing too many false struck gold coins here in the Iberian Peninsula. But I have been looking for them recently. So I am perhaps biased. I am no expect on this type. Own none and pay little attention to coins from Castile on sale. But I can recognize the texture of recent fakes. Can you obtain and post a larger photo, with better focus? The side with the cross would be of greater interest.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7933 Posts |
After looking through a lot of examples from other mints, I found this Seville variant that has annulets at the cusps of the quadrilobe, and marks S * on the sides of the shield that match better than Toledo or Granada.  But there remains the problem of the script (and the cross and the trefoils ...) |
|
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Spent some time researching this one because of the plague of other struck gold fakes I have been looking at.
Tauler has catalogued this coin. O the one it imitates. Says it was sold in 2014. Number 536 in his catalogue. His photo shows the coin captive of some kind of plastic holder. I have no doubt that it is the same coin or one is a copy.
He attributed the coin to Toledo because of the T on the left. But it is very similar to some others attributed to Seville. As tdziemia found. The annulets on the inside are irregular. The star on the right is very irregular for Toledo.
What we have here is an unlikely coincidence. Is this the same coin taken out of the plastic it was sold on in 2014? Is it a different one, a forgery? Were both forgeries?
Tauler was held as the authority on spanish gold coins. His method for the catalogue was counting coins from auctions he could find and showing an image for each variant. Number 536 is a one unit variant in the catalogue. It looks like he did not examine in hand all coins he catalogued. I feel that there is the risk some may not be genuine. But cannot call a coin fake on photos and coincidence alone.
This type newly minted should weight 3,4 g. If the one shown here is overweight by 0,1 g that is enough for me to call it false until proven otherwise. Notice there is a good portion of the legend missing. Like the coin was cut for the gold. And it appears worn, circulated. Yet it is overweight? If confirmed and if the official weight of this issue noted in the catalogue is also confirmed, then I would say it is a forgery. All I can be sure of now is that it is extremely suspicious.
This issue is a very good reason to NEVER buy hand struck coins inside plastic holders. You need to verify the weight and the details yourself.
Can you double check the weight? And provide better photos?
|
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
Hello all thank you for your deep insights and information. I was able to get better pictures, and re-weigh the coin last weekend. 3.48g Here are the photos.   |
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
I was able to find the exact coin on Tauler's catalog as per @jecz79. Seems to be slabbed by NGC? I'll now try to look for it in their database.  |
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
Another update. I was able to find that the coin was slabbed by NGC. It may have been taken out of the casing. The weight, and the fine little details are the same(discolorations, minute lines, etc).  |
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
coin on hand vs ngc vs Tauler  |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7933 Posts |
Congratulations! And it's good that the collective research here paid off in confirming your coin.
I was off track on the mint mark from the beginning because your original photos did not appear to clearly show a T.
Perhaps there were some years at the Toledo mint where the engraving quality was not at the same level as the other mints. I still think the lettering and some other design features are not executed with as much skill as at the other mints, which is what made me suspicious. But if I think of some other series in countries that I have more experience with (Poland), where a single type was struck across many mints, this is not so unusual.
|
|
Valued Member
Philippines
64 Posts |
Thank you @tdziemia!
I live in the Philippines, and we have lots of silver dos mundos, and portrait type gold coins in the numismatic groups, but not much gold cobs.
This forum has always shone a bright light when I'm in a dim!
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Yes now it is clear that the coin is the same. I am no stranger to extracting coins from their plastic prisons. That it is no longer in the box is not suspicions.
Tauler has blessed it. It is regarded as one of the authorities in spanish coins. I have personal reservations about their reliability. To me they are not above suspicion. But am unwilling to publish details.
I do not know the type to be able to provide informed opinion. The design of the coin does not look suspicious to me. Die engravers could move between mints. An expert on spanish coinage may even know the archives detailing who worked where, when. They are probably preserved in Simancas or Madrid.
I can only say is the weight makes it suspicious unless there is evidence of a standard up to 3.5 g at the time. It is possible that the coin was broken out of the plastic by someone who wanted to check the weight. Because what was written there seemed atypical. Try asking on a spanish forum like imperio numismatico. People there can help clear that doubt.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7933 Posts |
From the viewpoint of coin value, there is now a link through Tauler and TPGs that is solid. So the coin can always be re-sold with this "pedigree." From the viewpoint of historical authenticity, we can always continue the debate  |
| |
Replies: 14 / Views: 1,408 |
|
Posted 08/18/2025 07:17 am
