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1916 Buff Nickel VLDS "Two Feathers" Obv. With Huge Clash Marks?

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Oldgrouchyguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/08/2026  10:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Good evening, everyone! What do you think of this? Two Feathers obv.? 2.5? Huge clash marks of the neck and beard/horn, etc. What do you think? PCGS AU58
1916-Buff-Nickel-VLDS-
1916-Buff-Nickel-VLDS-
1916-Buff-Nickel-VLDS-
1916-Buff-Nickel-VLDS-
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
03/08/2026 10:28 pm
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 03/08/2026  10:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not a 2 feather, but I do see a clash remnant on the fields behind the neck (created by the hum of the back from the Bison.
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Oldgrouchyguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/08/2026  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dearborn: that's not part of the feather and it wouldn't be flattened by the clashing, would it be?
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Greasy Fingers's Avatar
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 Posted 03/09/2026  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This isn't the first time....non will it be the last..but I have to disagree with DB,
Yes to a 2 feather and IMO clash mark from the bisons hump where 3rd feather should be and I'm seeing the clash in his neck from unium. Nice looking coin..
Edited by Greasy Fingers
03/09/2026 12:24 am
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fortcollins's Avatar
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 Posted 03/11/2026  3:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1916 two-feather and two-and-a-half-feather Buffs are still a bit of a debated issue. They clearly exist, and that isn't the debate. What is debated is how many die pairs were involved and whether the known two-and-a-half-feather later became a two-feather.

When Ron Pope wrote his book, he believed that there were multiple die pairs that produced the 1916 two-feather. He also noted the 1916 two-and-a-half-feather, but did not include a photo. Ron's view (with a couple exceptions he mentioned in his book) was that no part of the feather could remain on a "true" two-feather.

Several things can be said about the 1916 feather varieties. First, they are common. Second, they exist with a wide variety of clashing and die polishing. Third, they exist in a wide variety of die states.

The cluttered design created a die clash mess for the mints. This led to more extensive die polishing than earlier five cent coins. The heavy nature of the polishing was due in part to the coining presses being used, which lacked safety guards. To be blunt, mint employees were a lot less concerned about damage they did to dies by overpolishing than they were about losing a hand or arm in a press accident while polishing the dies.

The first clash polishing involving feathers usually was the second feather / buffalo's head clash. The second polishing usually was the hairy neck / buffalo's back clash. This is the polishing that frequently abraded the area where the third feather joined the back of the Indian's head. The polishing understandably affected the shallower areas of the die first. That, in turn, created the "floating feather" or severed feather seen across several dates.

A great example is the 1937-D three-leg nickel. The first polishing abraded the leg, but did not sever the third feather. This is the scarcer earlier die state of the three leg variety. The second polishing created the better known die state with the severed third feather.

The auction coin appears to be an earlier die state of the known two-and-a-half-feather 1916 Buff. A great example of the later die state (after another polishing) is on Mad Die Clashes, where they list it as an example of a typical die clash as TDC-5c-1916-01. Notice in particular the curved clash beneath the auction coin's third feather, which corresponds with the buffalo's upper back. It is weak on the auction coin, but much more bold on the Mad Die Clashes coin.

One of the unanswered questions is whether the two-and-a-half-feather die pair had yet another clash polishing, where the remnant of the second feather was removed entirely. If so, that stage of the die life would make it one of the 1916 two-feather die pairs.

There are clearly at least two 1916 die pairs for the two-feather coins, because of the large number of known coins and differing die markers across die stages. I believe Ron Pope was right that there are multiple two-feather dies. It might be worthwhile comparing the markers on the auction coin with the known 1916 two-feather coins. The Cherry Picker's Guide shows the better known die pair with the heavy polishing marks. (I don't have the most recent edition, though, and later editions may show both commonly identified die pairs.) Photos of both common die pairs are shown on the PCGS population report pages.

That's a very long-winded way of saying that the auction coin appears to be an earlier die state of the known two-and-a-half-feather variety, and is not yet a two-feather variety. The 1916 feather varieties aren't rare, and don't command the hefty premium of scarcer dates.
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jbuck's Avatar
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Dearborn's Avatar
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 Posted 03/11/2026  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This isn't the first time....non will it be the last..but I have to disagree with DB,

Well, I can't get them all correct

At least I replied unlike the other 200 plus looky-loos
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Bump111's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2026  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... the auction coin appears to be an earlier die state of the known two-and-a-half-feather variety, and is not yet a two-feather variety.




There is also a 1916 two-feather variety that is missing the designer's initial "F" on obverse. I've wondered if that was from die polishing as well - I think that's the case.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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fortcollins's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2026  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


One of the questions is whether the two-feather-no-"F" is an additional later polishing of an existing/known two-feather or is yet an entirely different two-feather die.
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Bump111's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2026  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The No-F varieties shown in PCGS all exhibit weak third feathers. This may indicate further polishing that later erased the third feather entirely. But the area around the initial doesn't seem prone to clashing. These dies are unusual in several ways, so it's interesting and difficult to visualize what may have happened.

I was fortunate to discover a No-F / 2F version in at least AU condition in a small coin shop in the North Carolina mountains a couple of years back. It's one of the favorite coins in my collection.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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fortcollins's Avatar
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 Posted 03/12/2026  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The branch mints had quite a few Ferracute knuckle presses that were used into the 1950s. Those are some of the nastiest, most dangerous machines I've ever been around. At least in Denver, I was told by a credible source that mint workers back in the day wired together two long-handled brass brushes to polish dies on those monsters without risking their hands and arms. I don't think they were concerned with polishing only the clashed areas. It certainly explains the three-leg and three-and-a-half leg Buffs from Denver.
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Oldgrouchyguy's Avatar
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 Posted 03/13/2026  9:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldgrouchyguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
fortcollins: Wow! Thank You! I thought that the manner in which the Bison's right rear leg was sinking, it was a pretty late state...
I like the enlarged goiter, which has a die break to the braid
1916-Buff-Nickel-VLDS-
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
03/13/2026 9:50 pm
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