1776 Mexican Fake/Counterfeit Fantasy

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Author	Replies: 5 / Views: 1,085
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 05/03/2006 09:27 am Here is an interesting Modern counterfeit that demonstrates a problem that forgers have with transfer dies; http://cgi.ebay.com/MEXICO-8-REALES...mZ8415348615 The coin is struck using dies made from two real coins. The portrait side has been slightly re-engraved to strengthen some details that were likely missing on the host coin - note the very odd looking mouth on King Charles. The die used for the shield (obverse) side is from a later dated coin. It makes a mule that never existed - a technical fantasy. This is why the seller thinks it is RARE. It is unlisted not because of rarity but because of forgery. The new problem I want to point out is on the shield side. The new coin is struck off center slightly showing the ends of the dentils. On an original die the dentils were losenge shaped and pointed at BOTH ends. The dentils were long enough so that they could have made coins a few mm bigger in diameter than standard. These coins were positioned between the dies by hand so some variation would take place and Mexican officials did not want to leave a blank margin like this coin has. The problem is that when they make a transfer copy die they can only make what is on the original die - uless they want to do some extra work. In this case the truncated dentils are VERY obvious. I know the seller - he is a decent fellow with a limited understanding of these coins. He buys from China unfortunately and often posts counterfeits in error. Report this Post to the Staff

Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 05/07/2006 6:07 pm Thanks for the education on this coin. It's a shame that the seller is not necessarily dishonest but will be perceived as such. I'm surprised he didn't ask you about it if he knows you, or is your relationship with him strictly buyer/seller? Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 05/07/2006 9:03 pm I know the seller in terms of a buyer-seller relationship. I have bought several counterfeits from him over the past six years - usually older ones - a couple listed in Riddell. In each case he has offered my money back and really tries to do the right thing. He says he doesn't know they are forgeries and I really believe him. But in a couple recent cases, he has posted modern material like this one that he got from China. His start prices are too high to interest me and he believes he has uncovered real rarities. I think he may believe that I am trying to "pull a fast one" and get him to reduce his prices. Unfortunately the last couple sold and the buyers were satisfied BELIEVING the coins are real. Until a buyer tries to get one of these rarities certified and tells him they are fakes he is unlikely to believe me. Report this Post to the Staff
Morgan Fred Rest in Peace United States 2684 Posts	Posted 05/07/2006 11:43 pm I just read his negative/neutral feedback. http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/neg...=Received+by He has a history of selling counterfeits. I find it hard to believe that he isn't aware that many of his sales are of fakes; I can't believe either he or his buyers are that gullible to believe he's selling the real thing. He's one from whom I would keep a long distance away. Report this Post to the Staff
Susanlynn9 Forum Mom United States 5877 Posts	Posted 05/07/2006 11:53 pm I tend to think that by now he knows that most of what he's selling is counterfeits but is not concerned since he has a good return policy. That would also explain why he starts them so high. Overall, he's making good money selling them, so there is no reason to stop. If this is not the case, that's a real shame since this is the way it appears. I cannot understand selling multiple counterfeits and not learning anything from that. If I were him, I would have started more intensive research after the first counterfeit that was revealed. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 05/08/2006 12:21 am Fred - as I said - he does sell fakes. I know that which is why I have him on my favorites list and I regularly check his auctions. However, I think he has no clue as to what he has. He is a coin reseller not an expert by any means. He buys and sells for profit. But I have never seen him sell a really poor fake either. His english is poor so it is a bit difficult talking with him at times - however, I also know that some of the fakes he handles are good enough to fool many collectors and some dealers in person. I know this because I have done it. I often take a few fakes with me to Coin Shows and I have several that I could sell as real with virtually no problems. Everyone fooled by them can hardly believe me. Some really DON'T believe me and think I'm a bit touched. But in each case, I am following the diagnostic clues given to me by my mentor years ago in New England. This old time dealer was no fly by night guy. He had been collecting since 1900. But he was skeptical of the newer dealers who placed profits before scholarship. He was a true "outsider" never trusting the establishment dealers. Some forgeries made in the 1890-1910 period are so well executed that they still reside in collections as real coins. I only have to point to the recently "discovered" micro O dollars to prove my point. They are catalogued in VAM but they are simple contemporary forgeries in silver. They are the same type that I often deal with. By the way, my mentor believed these micro O dollars were not legitimate mint products. He told me this as early as 1976 - but the "experts" disagreed! He always maintained that someday the forgery would be disclosed. So even though he passed away in the late 1970s, I am sure he is having a good chuckle about this situation. Sometimes the last laugh is best. Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 5 / Views: 1,085

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1776 Mexican Counterfeit Fantasy