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 Replies: 24 / Views: 5,335 |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Has anyone here heard of a thing called denticle impressions? If so, does anyone know what the cause is?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Zeewool, Yes I have ... check VAMWorld on the 1878-S, VAM 17A (one example). The phenomenon is caused by clashed dies (two dies coming together in the press without a coin planchet in between). In the case of the 17A, the clashing shows between the ribbon bow and tail feathers on the reverse. In normal die alignment, the obverse LIBERTY should be in this area, not denticles. I believe on this die, a struck coin was not fully ejected and on the next strike, the denticles of this coin were pressed into the die. On other denticle impressions VAMs, the denticle impressions show near the reverse lower rim (One Dollar area). I forgot to mention denticle impressions are raised from the surface of the coin and not incuse. There are examples of incuse impressions, but these are post-mint damage from two coins coming in contact. Edited by SeatedNut
09/25/2009 09:12 am
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Pillar of the Community
 3660 Posts |
Thanks SeatedNut, seems like you always answer my posts. Great to have someone like you around.
I like your ability to have an open mind about this denticle impression thing possibly being an ejection problem. It differs dramatically from the magical fantasy that I have heard elsewhere.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote:
I believe on this die, a struck coin was not fully ejected and on the next strike, the denticles of this coin were pressed into the die. I'm not a VAM collector, so I looked up the variety--interesting coin, especially how the denticles are raised in the field. I do wonder a little how a silver coin would create marks on a hardened steel die?  Could another possibility be a blunder during the making of the die? A hardened steel hub that struck an unhardened die off-axis would plausibly leave marks. I really don't know...I have a couple off-axis denticle marks on coins that make me wonder how they were made. Edited by DVCollector
09/25/2009 1:19 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
its not the coin that does it, its the two dies clashing together without a planchet between them
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Since the denticles are at the edge of the die, how do they make impressions all over the place?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
If it were the coin that made the impressions in the die, and since the denticles are rounded and surrounded by the rim, would not the die show both rounded impressions as well as a rim impression?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
I think we may suffer brain damage trying to think this one through ... oops, too late for me!  Another postulate ... perhaps a terminal die failure of the obverse die where a section of the rim completely broke free of the die and sat on the surface of the the reverse die on the next striking. Of course this would require the reverse die to be the anvil die and the obverse the hammer die ... can't recall if this is the correct alignment with all the brain damage I'm suffering from.  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
SeatedNut, you are the first person that that I have encountered to have put a correct label on this. That is exactly how these things happen, and the obverse die is always the hammer (or upper die). I am impressed.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
 With a few exceptions, the obverse is the hammer die. Flying Eagle cents were "reversed", ie reverse hammer, obverse anvil. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Ah yes DVCollector, you are correct. My error. I was speaking strictly of Morgan dollars. The relief of each die design would dictate the upper and lower die. The higher relief die would naturally be the upper die. |
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
how does this occur, again? doesn;t that mean that no planchet would be between the dies, also?
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
Please read whole post before hitting reply. LOL I am open to believing this is something other than a clash, but... I believe you find what you look for. If you dont want it to be a clash, you will find a reason for it to not be a clash, if you want it to be a clash, you will reason that way. Fact of the matter is there are MUCH smarter people than me, whom have decided after 1000's of hours of their professional time spent with 100,000's of Morgan dollars have come to the conclusion that they are in fact clashes. Whether it be rotated dies, loose dies, doesn't matter. The fact is, the Experts believe they are clash marks. I do not know enough to say one way or another, and I can see the reasoning on both sides. The experts dont always get it right, and I do not just blindly follow. But in this case, I think I will follow the experts lead, and go with a clash. I am not going to fight about how they got there. I plainly say until those making the decisions change their mind, they will be accurately be labeled as Clashed Denticles. Convincing us/me is easy... your real target should be Leroy. You make a good case, now convince the man who gives the attributions. Gut feelings and guesses is not enough. PROVE they cannot be a clash then we are on to something, otherwise it is just conversation. You may eventually sway me, but like I said, it needs to be proven. Keep going. This for you is like clashed letters on Peace dollars for me. I know it, I just have to prove it. I will.... eventually. |
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
The explanation here and on VAMworld imply the experts really dont know - so they gave it a label in hopes it would go away.
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
Bill, that is one take on it. The other being that the experts have spent thousands of hours of research (where I have not) on the subject and decided they are and have their proof. Again, I do not need to get into a tit for tat argument, because that is not what I am trying to do here. I just think if you have proof otherwise, get it out there and get it changed. But to say they "...gave it a label in hopes it would go away." I think is grossly inaccurate. I doubt the experts looked at it and said... hmmm them are denticles, label it thata way.
I see an astute dollar man researching a ton, and based on his/her expert knowledge, decided the explanation of denticles and their reasons for them fits best. Will it be changed? Maybe. Are you the one who will get it changed... maybe. But I doubt they just *poof* decided "denticle clash".
If you challenge the denticle idea to incite conversation to further your study of ideas it is great. If you are doing it to find people who think the way you do, you will, but that does not help prove your side.
"...It differs dramatically from the magical fantasy that I have heard elsewhere." This does not sound open minded to it being a denticle clash yet you are happy that someone is open minded to "your" idea. Lets focus on proving it one way or another. Thats all I am saying. (please do not take this as a personal attack zeewool. I like you, as you have been nothing but nice to me) I just used it as an example to make a point.
My 2 cents
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
i looked back at posts by zeewool and there was no proof presented by the experts that they knew how the marks occurred. zeewool seemed to know a lot more about how equipment worked but no one seemed to listen. the VAM books dont do any better - maybe becuase there are no good pictures and most dont know much about how dollar coin presses (? right term?) worked. I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand--guess I'm not in tune yet. |
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Replies: 24 / Views: 5,335 |
Posted 09/25/2009 11:01 am
