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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19944 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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Mr. Vartian said he would be happy if the Langbords were allowed to sell the coins. "Maybe they were stolen in the 1930s," he said, "but they certainly weren't stolen by the people who are holding them now." just because the person who "stole" them isn't the one with possession now doesn't mean they are still not stolen property belonging to the rightful owner |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
 The moral of the story is if you hide your crime long enough, then it ceases being a crime? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1082 Posts |
Yep...Statute of Limitations...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5609 Posts |
I wonder among other things, does anyone know, or did any body ask "How these coins came to be in the safety deposit box of this family?Also, what else do they have tucked away?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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Yep...Statute of Limitations...
Nope, Statutes of Limitations only apply to criminal charges which would have expired long before now anyway. But there is no such thing as Statutes of Limitation on the return of stolen property- a prime example is Holocaust survivors and their children recovering valuable works of art that were looted by the Nazis. Edited by biokemist6
09/28/2009 11:53 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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But there is no such thing as Statutes of Limitation on the return of stolen property Exactly, if the rightful owner didn't turn over ownership to anyone else then its still their property no matter how much time has passed. The person who stole the property may not be able to get charged with the crime but the property still belongs to the one it was stolen from |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2520 Posts |
But, what I read is that nobody can prove they were stolen! Or by who or even when! If a gold for gold exchange took place...then they really weren't stolen. If they wer purchased through an agent of the mint (the cashier) then they weren't stolen. Not much different than going to a bank and exchanging paper money for rolls of half dollars from a teller (an agent of the bank) and finding out they were all Walkers with a couple of Barbers mixed in. The bank finds out somehow and wants them back! NOT likely to happen, because they were purchased through an agent of the bank! This is still America and I feel that proof that a crime was committed is a must in this case.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
well the point is, they were never released to the public. They were locked up in a locker that the friend had a key to. They were illegal to own before they were ever finished with production so the only way to actually get any of them is to steal them in a sense. Yes he probably traded another date for the 1933 coins but that was not supposed to happen. When they melted down the 1933 St Gaudens they didn't check dates they probably just either dumped them out and weighed them or counted them. The clerk would take the 1933 coins and then swift would bring other dates to swap for them after the ban had already been put in place and the clerk would put the other dates back in the bag with the other 1933 coins so no one would know some were missing. If there was an exchange of any type why in the heck would only one man be responsible for ALL of the coins that made it out of the mint? Even if it was an exchange like described above it still wasn't a legal exchange so they are still stolen property
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2520 Posts |
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Even if it was an exchange like described above it still wasn't a legal exchange so they are still stolen property  Somebody gives $20.00 & receives $20.00....how does this equal theft? I'll not deny that it was probably done through a shady deal! But I would hardly call it theft! If the mints cashier sold those coins to your Great Grandfather.....would you be calling him a thief? I think the burden of proof lies with the mint. They need to prove the coins were stolen to be able to seize them. If they can prove that they were purchased through an illegal exchange, then they could refund 10 double eagles (or whatever was used for the purchase) to the family. The thing is they have no proof of anything. That's where the problem is. (whatever happened to the cashier if he was suspected of being involved in this? Was he fired?) |
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Valued Member
United States
245 Posts |
Possession is 9/10 of the law.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
According to this legal article, it is plainly obvious that the coins never made it out of the Mint legally. The last shipment of gold coins left the Philadelphia Mint on March 6, 1933. No 1933 Double Eagles were in that $12.25 million shipment; none had yet been minted. But despite the gold embargo, engraving work at the Mint continued. Ten days after the last gold shipment, workers at the Philadelphia Mint began striking 1933 Double Eagles. In three series of mintings between March 15 and May 19, a total of 445,500 1933 Double Eagles were struck.
Most of them never left the Philadelphia Mint. All but 466 coins were sealed into a Mint vault in June 1933. The others were sent out, some to Washington, D.C., and some to New York, for standard testing. Twenty-nine coins were destroyed in the testing. The rest were returned to the Philadelphia Mint, where they were locked into a cashier's safe that could only be opened with two keys held by the Mint cashier. Two coins were eventually sent to the Smithsonian to be added to the museum's complete collection of American coins. All of the other existing 1933 Double Eagles -- the 445,034 coins held in the Mint vault and the 435 in the cashier's vault -- were, according to the records of the Philadelphia Mint, melted down between February 6 and March 18, 1937.
But on February 15, 1937, a Philadelphia jeweler named Israel Switt sold a 1933 Double Eagle to Philadelphia coin dealer James MacAllister.The Mint Cashier at the time, George McCann, was eventually convicted of theft for stealing silver from the Mint. Israel Switt was arrested in 1934 for illegal possession of a large quantity of gold coins as he tried to board a train in Philadelphia- his suitcase was suspiciously heavy, imagine that. He also was known in numismatic circles as a "gold coin bootlegger". These are two seedy characters and they were far from innocent, they knew exactly what they were doing by illegally exchanging the 1933s. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2520 Posts |
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Switt was arrested in 1934 for illegal possession of a large quantity of gold coins as he tried to board a train in Philadelphia Your "legal article actually states this" Quote:
City police officers seized the briefcase and found it filled with old gold coins. I do believe that gold coins of recognized collector value were legal to own! I guess we'll never know what was meant by "old gold" Doing a little research myself, NONE of the coins made it out of the mint as you say "legally"! That includes the Farouk specimen (Which Switt was behind that one too) which the government (in all its wisdom) decided to legalize that one coin (which also left the mint in a dubious manner). The government settled out of court and the seller agreed to split the proceeds (over 7 million dollars) with the government and the buyer had to pay the government the $20.00 face value of the coin! (talk about double dipping) Theres NO proof of a theft, Only allegations that the coins were Purchased from a shady teller (so the government got $40.00 for their $20.00 Plus half of sale price of roughly 7 million dollars). I think the government left themselves wide open by legalizing the one coin! I still say the burden of proof lies with the government to prove theft! Unknown quantity stolen when? How? by whom? Nobody really knows but they were all traced back to Switt! Circumstantial! No proof! For all anybody really knows he could have bought them from somebody else who bought them from the mint! (unlikely but possible). Nine were either seized or turned over to the government and destroyed! One resurfaces after 40 years and is legalized? I foresee the others being legalized since the Farouk was legalized! And the Greedy government will do it's best to get as big a percentage as possible (plus their $20.00 face value....Again)! Edited by ratman4762
09/30/2009 04:39 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1840 Posts |
Geez Ratman. You debate like you have a dog in this fight.
I understand how you may want to see some one stick it to the man. What I don't understand is why you would vehemently defend a guy who was generally considered a loathsome character, including by those in the numismatic community.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
The 2002 sale was not the defining event that led to the legalization of the Farouk specimen. That occurred decades earlier in 1944 when the Treasury Department issued an export license to agents of King Farouk. Without that export license, that one coin would have also been permanently seized but a lawfully issued export license handcuffed the government's case.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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If the mints cashier sold those coins to your Great Grandfather.....would you be calling him a thief? well I wouldn't care who it was, if they were not legal to own they are illegal to own, no matter how he got them or how much he paid for it. You see the person he gave the 20.00 to wasn't the rightful owner the Govt was so they could not give up possession rightfully to anyone else except the Govt. It being someone in my family wouldn't change the facts so not sure why that was even asked. If it wasn't a shady deal and the parties knowing what was happening why would they put the coins exchanged back in the bag, that right there tells us they were not supposed to leave that locker. if they were just an exchange then the 20.00 coins they exchanged for the 1933 coins would have just been put somewhere else not in a bag with only 1933 coins. I have to admit the collector in me hates to think these may be melted down in the Govt gets to keep them but it still doesn't change the fact that its stolen property and the rightful owner is the Govt to do what they wish with Quote:
Possession is 9/10 of the law. I hope your collection never gets stolen and the person who bought them from the thief says that to you. illegal possession is still illegal possession and if the rightful owner didn't give you the right to own it then they are not yours even if you have possession and in fact you can be charged for possession of stolen goods and there is no limitation on how long something is considered stolen. Point in fact, my grandfather had a gun stolen from him in the 60's well in 2003 he got a call that they had found his gun in a pawn shop and it was returned to him because he was the rightful owner |
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Replies: 29 / Views: 4,360 |
Posted 09/28/2009 3:31 pm
