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 Replies: 16 / Views: 3,169 |
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
I wish I had found this site a few months ago, because I have purchased 2 Morgan dollars graded by this same company and up until reading this post and these replies, I felt pretty confident that I had made 2 very good purchases. 1 is a 1997-0 VAM 6A graded an MS66 and the other is a 1878 CC VAM 20 graded an MS65. I would like to post some pics of them but I am new here and don't know how to add pics or where I should post them. If someone could give me a walkthrough on how and where to do this I would really appreciate it. It sure is tough being a new coin collector, I just started a few months ago and have bought quite a few coins. I think I jumped in way to quick and should have gained a lot more knowledge about coins and grading before I made any purchases. Thanks everyone. Edit: This topic has been split from its' original home to present it to a more specific audience
-SuperDave |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
terry,
There's a comprehensive explanation on the left hand margin under "tutorials: uploading photos". After reading it, if you still have questions, let us know and we'll guide you through it.
Sometimes these basement slabbers make a mistake and slab a decent coin. Hopefully they did that twice in your case. There is no way these will grade MS66 and 65 in the real world, but they may be correctly attributed and be problem-free uncirculated examples. A long shot, but we're hoping this is the case for you.
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New Member
 United States
23 Posts |
Edited by Terry863
12/23/2009 02:33 am
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
Hey everybody, I finally figured out how to add photo's and I just added some of the ones that I bought, graded from this company.( The photos are in my previous post above this one) The first pic is the 1897-0 VAM variety, it is supposed to have a triple die break on the reverse. I would like everyone's opinion on the grade and wether to keep this coin or try to resale it on ebay and recover some of my money. The second coin is supposed to be a 1878-CC VAM type and supposed to have a line in the eye. Please give me any opinions on the grades and value of these coins and opinions on what I should do with these coins. I bought these a couple of months ago on ebay and was bidding accordingly based on the video that the guy had along with these coins.And by looking at some online price guides for the suggested grades that were given to these coins by the uscg grading company. Any and all advice and opinions are greatly appreciated, Like I said before I am a novice or newbie when it comes to collecting coins and just started about 3 months ago but apparently I sure have a lot to learn because most of the coins I have purchased were based on the same decisions that I made to purchase these coins. I know very little about grading coins myself (actually nothing)and have been going by the grades the coins were given. (just call me stupid) but I am going to stop buying any more coins until I gain a lot more knowledge and I hope members of this forum can help me do this. Thanks everyone, PS, if you don't know too much about these but know someone who does could you point them in the direction of this post please) Thanks again. Oh yeah, A Special thanks to SeatedNut for helping me to figure out how to upload photos, THANX. Edited by Terry863
12/23/2009 01:38 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1534 Posts |
I'm sorry, the top one has been cleaned and the lower one is in the MS-63 range, from the pictures. Don't know about the VAM's though. Hope you paid an okay price for them. I think you should put this in the Classic Coins forum, it'll get more attention there. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1534 Posts |
I think you should move this to the Classic Coins forum and how much did you pay, if I may ask?
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
Thanks Wheatguy, I really overpaid for the coins if they are in the condition that you say they are. Like I said I am very new and know nothing about grading coins, but could you advise me a little on how to tell if a coin has been cleaned? or maybe let me know how you knew how the coin was cleaned. If I knew how to tell that,it would be a great help.
I really appreciate the reply (even though it wasn't good news) but it is better to know now, because I was going to spend even more money on them and find out how to submit them to pcgs for grading.
I'm new here and don't know my way around this forum (as a matter of fact,this is the only forum I have ever took part in)but I will try to figure out how to get it over there.
Again Thank You.
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
Hey Wheatguy I don't mind at all you asking how much I paid for them. I just checked on ebay and I paid: $222.85 for the 1878-CC and I paid $159.51 for the 1897-O For a total of: $382.36 (including shipping) also I just found out while I was checking the prices that I have 45 days to open a dispute and I bought them on Nov. 15th so, if I hurry I can still maybe get my money back. I am going to listen to more opinions on the forum and then based on that make a decision on what to do. Again Thank You. Edited by Terry863
12/23/2009 08:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Terry, As you have probably already realized, these are not MS66 and MS65 coins. Both have considerable "chatter" in the fields and hits on the devices. The New Orleans dollars (O mintmark) are notorious for weak strikes and you can see this on your example. Compare the ear and hair around it with the 78-CC, also look at the eagle's breast feathers on the reverse and note lack of definition on the 97-O. There is a chance the 78-CC would get a grade from a reputable company (PCGS, NGC, ANACS). I can't assign a grade or attribute a VAM from the pictures you posted (caveat: nice for the first attempt). The 97-O is a key in uncirculated condition and worth considerably more than what you paid if MS60, but I doubt it will grade (likely cleaned). What coin dealer (term used loosely here) would let an $60~$80K coin (value if in a PCGS MS66 holder) sell for $222.85? It really kills us when a "victim" comes here with this kind of story after the damage is done. You are far from the first and sadly, won't be the last. It's a jungle out there and if you are uninformed there are literally thousands of unscrupulous sellers out there waiting to take advantage. Your only protection is education and that's what you'll get here. Your first lesson wasn't too expensive (mine was in the thousands many years ago). Good luck on your attempt to recover monies via ebay. They will likely require "expert proof" since most of these fly-by-nights know how to avoid saying the "wrong" things in their listings. ebay will probably say it's just a matter of opinion. I would encourage you to "out" this seller in our section dedicated to ebay Discouraged Sellers in the Auction Forum section. |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
I'll address these individually; you're not going to like it. 1. 1897-O: First, there are no known VAM-6A's in Uncirculated condition. This isn't one, either. It's definitely VAM-6; the date and mint mark placement (as near as I can tell) lock that in as they are unique. 6A, however, is characterized by two large breaks - one through the D in Dollar, which I think I see on this coin - and one through the top of UNITED and into the star, which I do not see on this coin. http://www.vamworld.com/1897-O+VAM-6AThe pics are insufficient for me to form an opinion as to the originality or grade of this coin; it's conceivable that an 1897-O showing this much "wear" could be as good as AU - although the Eagle's breast and legs seem worn, the tops of the wings don't show much wear. In any event, an original-surfaces 1897-O in MS is a slam-dunk 4-figure payday for the seller; why would he not then get such a coin into a reputable slab? The answer is obvious. 2. 1878-CC: The fields are extremely chattery; this one might make MS61 or MS62. I make no judgment as to the originality of the surfaces. The line through the eye is key for this VAM; if it's present, it could only be VAM-17 or VAM-20 and the mint mark placement indicates VAM-20. Terry863, the worst aspect of our duties here at Coin Community is dealing with folks like yourself who have been taken in by the sleazy bottom-feeders of numismatics. At best, you're holding about $250 worth of coins here, most of that being the intrinsic value of a Mint State 1878-CC. The 1897-O is a tossup for me, without further information. |
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
Thank You SeatedNut,SuperDave and Wheatguy...I was kind of expecting that kind of outcome after reading all the replies in the ( TPG)third party grading thread on this (USCG) third party grading company. You guys sure have a nice way with words, (I can tell you all are very knowledgable just by the way you speak and the terms you use, even though I don't understand some of them I feel confident that I came to the right place for advice and opinions)and to get educated about coin collecting and grading. Now, for the next step. Where do I go from here?  Do I send a request for a refund and file a dispute claim(which I know will probably be a big headache) I have a 100% feedback rating and don't want to mess that up. Or do I try to resell them on ebay and not worry about having to go through the headache of filing a dispute? I would just post those photos and let the buyers know that I know nothing about coin grading that they would have to do the judging for themself's And maybe try to recover as much as I can from my losses. Or should I consider trying to have either of them graded by NGC, or PCGS and hope for the best? Any and all suggestions I would greatly appreciate. I guess what I should have said is: What would you guys do if you were in the situation that I am in. Thanks everyone and I really appreciate all the help. I am not a very big seller on ebay, I think I have only sold like 2 items on there since becoming a member in I think 2005. Edited by Terry863
12/23/2009 10:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2797 Posts |
Terry, Where you go really depends on what you wanted the coins for in the first place. If they were purchased for an investment, they will never achieve that status. If you want decent examples for your personal collection, keep the 78-CC (don't slab it because the slab won't increase its value significantly compared to cost) and attempt to return the 97-O. Don't worry about your ebay feedback. Sellers are now prohibited from listing anything negative about a buyer. Quote:Or do I try to resell them on ebay and not worry about having to go through the headache of filing a dispute? I would just post those photos and let the buyers know that I know nothing about coin grading that they would have to do the judging for themself's And maybe try to recover as much as I can from my losses. I personally would not do this. It's dishonest and repeats the scenario that you went through. I say "buck up" and take your loss. If you want to recover some of your money, crack those puppies out of their USCG tombs and sell them "raw". Take pictures that accurately show the coin and let the viewer judge their grade. There's a great chance that you may only recover melt value for the 97-O, but if the 78-CC is indeed uncirculated, it could sell for more than $150. Then there are those ebay fees ...  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Terry,so many things to say to you. If you are going to purchase Morgan dollars for grade and value, PCGS and NGC are considered the top two third party grading companies with PCGS in the top spot. This isn't my opinion, the market has decided this. The next group of third party graders is ANACS, and ICG. What is important to remember is all of them use different grading standards. Please realize that all of the remaining alphabet third party grading companies use their own grading standards as well. Relative to PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG there typically is a two point difference in grading. Sometimes even amongst PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG there is a two point difference, but many times as not a one point difference is common. They do not use the same same grading standards, they use their own standards. It is important if you are going to collect that you learn to grade a coin. This will be a big help to you and save you a lot of money and heartache. I think it is important that you identify what you want to collect and why you want to collect. Morgan dollars offer the collector a wide array of varieties to choose from. These are called vams, an acronym from Leroy Van Allen and A. George Mallis who have spent a good part of their lives identifying different die pairs of the Morgan and Peace dollars. Van Allen Mallis= VAM. I recommend you do your research first before which will help you make a better more informed decision. One last consideration that I think will help. Always buy the coin, not the plastic. Trust your instincts in this. |
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
Hey guys, The guy on ebay offered to give me a refund on both coins. Should I return both coins or maybe have the 1878-cc given a closer look at? Thanks and I look forward to your advice. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1551 Posts |
I am glad the seller did the right thing. Ozland is most right never buy the plastic...
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New Member
United States
23 Posts |
OK should be my final reply to this post and finally put this issue to rest.
SeatedNut,you are exactly right, I wouldn't want to do to somebody else what this person has done to me.
(it doesn't feel good at all)
I am mailing both coins back to the seller and hope he sends me the refund like he said he would. (I'll just be out the money I paid for shipping)
Ozland, Thanks for the great advice, I definately will try to do what you said, But how does one go about getting educated on how to grade coins? I am completely ignorant as to how to grade a coin, I can't tell if it has been cleaned,dipped or whizzed and really don't even know the meaning of those words in terms of coin grading.
Any help on getting this dummy educated?
If anyone can help I am a great listener and really would appreciate the help.
I want to thank everyone that posted a reply for helping me out and let each and every one of you know that I value your opinions and advice greatly.
Again, Thanks Everyone.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 3,169 |
Posted 12/22/2009 12:48 pm
