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70 S Not Confusing Enough For You?

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joe finds's Avatar
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 Posted 01/24/2010  11:26 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add joe finds to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Well, here we are again! I find from three to seven 70 S LMC's a day. Then, after all we've been through, I have to find two just like this one! And both nice and shiny, very little ware and scratch free. I don't think this is a small date because of the location and direction of the doubling. But I've been wrong so far. Is the nine curled and pointed enough?
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70-S-Not-Confusing-Enough-For-You?
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 Posted 01/25/2010  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Joe, why don't you take that great info from the previous post and apply it to this coin. Analyze the specific diagnostic points and come back and tell us what you think it is and why. I am sure you will get a better understanding of these in the process. Are the numbers aligned properly on top, is there anything about the 7 and yes, does it have the correct curl on the 9? Oh, and by the way, the Machine Doubling you see has nothing to do with it.

Jim
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coop's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2010  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hint look at the bottom of the 7 in the date.
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Indian1's Avatar
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 Posted 01/25/2010  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Study the 7 and study LIBERTY
If the top bar of the seven looks like it is just sitting up there
on top of the vertical like it was glued on, it is a large date.
Look for wear on LIBERTY as compared to the rest of the words on the coin especially the tops of the T and Y if worn, it is a small date.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2010  7:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Jim1953 Admittedly, I was confused by these for years until I found a real SD.
I'll just post a pic of a SD that shows the shape of 9 and 7 well:

70-S-Not-Confusing-Enough-For-You?
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 Posted 01/25/2010  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great pic, DV. I also find that the center or hole on the zero appears significantly smaller on the small date.
Jim
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2010  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jim,
I have noticed that difference too--doesn't the interior oval of the 0 look slightly pointed?
I've made a mental note of other differences, such as the SD 7 digit. In addition to everything else, the top stroke appears shorter.
The downstroke of the 7 is shorter against the 0, and it also ends at an angle. The LD downstroke is longer and terminates more horizontally.
Here's a pic taken from a prior conversation on small dates--I have a large archive of these pics.

70-S-Not-Confusing-Enough-For-You?
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joe finds's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2010  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe finds to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you guys got me nerveous to say what I think here. I understand your reasoning though.But, the curl and the point look right. A leval line across the top between the 1 and 0 leaves very little space between the top of the 7 and that leval line. The bottom of the 7 angels up into the 1 and below the 0. and there appears to be no crease in the 7 even with the dent where it is. I'm probably wrong again even though it seems so right.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2010  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Joe,
We're just discussing here with ya! The small date/large date differences confused me for years...because I was looking for one in circulation. As noted elsewhere--they're very hard to find in change. I used to collect piles of 70-S, hoping to see just one small date in those hundreds of cents. I never had any luck--but eventually my mind played tricks on me because I wanted one so bad. It's sorta like the mirage in a desert when you're thirsty.

This was all cleared up when I actually found a Small Date in a dealer's pile of Lincolns. They're really obvious in person, and it should clarify the differences. Finding one in bank rolls is possible, but very difficult. Better bet--look for one in dealer bins where Lincolns are cut out from mint sets. For some reason, a lot of small dates turn up there.

About the photo above--I posted simply to illustrate the difference in top stroke length on the 7. The top picture is a small date, the bottom a large date, and the middle coin turned out to be a small date too, where damaged obscured details.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 01/26/2010  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
you guys got me nerveous to say what I think here
Do not be!

It has been mentioned before that once you see the two varieties side-by-side, the difference is obvious. I know that is how it was for me. I also know that looking at two pictures, with all of the lighting anomalies, is not the best way to learn this.

I know you want to find one. Although they are very rare in circulation, I do not think anyone should tell you to give it up. So I offer you this advice. Go to a coin show and find a dealer that has both of them, then examine them in your own hands.

Once you see them together, I do not think you will ever have a problem identifying the differences again.

Edit: this is what I get for starting a reply at work, then getting sidetracked because DVC made the same points!
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2010  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I also know that looking at two pictures, with all of the lighting anomalies, is not the best way to learn this.

Lighting angles can play tricks with our eyes--another reason why inspecting a small date in hand makes all the difference. I'm no expert here on Lincolns, but forums like this have certainly helped!
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joe finds's Avatar
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347 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2010  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe finds to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well right on then! Thanks for all the positive input. This is what (one of the things)that makes this way of life we chose interesting - if it's not a challenge, it's not for me! DV's picts with the crosshairs is most helpful. I have just such a part I can add to my looking glass that will help. And If one of these buyers in Albequerque bite on my
DD's I'll pick up one as suggested(insisted), thanks for all. Well see how we all did with this soon. oh, also, This topic is a great archive for new members here to read. That thought helps me also!!
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 Posted 01/27/2010  09:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim1953 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Joe, those pics DV posted illustrate most of the primary diagnostic traits perfectly and you need to commit them to heart. They will make you a 1970-S small date expert among your peers. A couple of things I have learned about them are that the inside loop on the large date, if complete, would look more like a perfect circle where that same loop on the small date is more ovate or football shaped to my eye. And, this seems to stand out when looking at them in hand with a loop. I have gotten to the point that I can see this trait with the naked eye, or so I think.

Great pics, DV. I still thank Badthad for first pointing out to me the significance of the bottom of the 7. To me, that one is very obvious.

Jim
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chuckster 125's Avatar
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 Posted 01/27/2010  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chuckster 125 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


The very first thing I do when I find a 70S roll searching etc is turn it upside down.

The bottom of the seven on the large date sticks out like a sore thumb- extends much lower than the zero- can't miss it (IMHO)!

* So far, I've also never found a 70 S small Date in circulation.*
Edited by chuckster 125
01/27/2010 10:21 am
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
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 Posted 02/01/2010  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great tips to diagnose this variety, I might add one more, if the ends of the nine are both pointed, you have a small date!!!
If the inside loop of the 9 points down towards the bottom of the 7, you have a large date.
If the inside loop of the 9 points towards the middle of the 7, you have a small date.

In other words, the inside loop of the 9 is more complete, almost like the letter "C".

I know this can be confusing, but these are just a few PUP'S, (pick-up points) for this coin, there are many more. I would, as suggested before, get a Red Book, pictures always work better for me, what ever you do Joe, do not give up, ask as many questions as you feel you need to, to understand this little hill you are having a problem with, good luck, pm me anytime, Mike....
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