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A Major Threat To Coin Collectors

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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23500 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  6:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I pulled this from another site but it is very important please fill out the fax and send it.


To the Numismatic Community: urgent call for action- This should concern everyone who buys, collects or sells coins. Please act now. Deadline is April 22.

Whether you collect coins over 250 years old or not, this is an issue that should concern not only every coin collector, but any world citizen who believes in the right to own property, and the rule of law. Does that sound grandiose? The question being considered by a secretive, unelected panel in Washington DC is whether coins, which have passed freely from hand to hand for centuries according to the intent of their issuers, have morphed into something that radical archaeologists and nationalistic politicians call "cultural property," which you are not fit to own. And the practical question this biased and unaccountable committee will decide in two weeks is whether U.S. Customs will be mandated to seize virtually all older coins they think are of Italian origin, with no practical recourse.
The U.S. State Department has announced a date of May 6-7 for Cultural Property Advisory Committee hearings on the request for renewal of the Memorandum of Understanding with Italy. Hopefully your eyes are not already glazed over by this first sentence. In practical terms, the U.S. government is about to decide whether antiquities and other forms of cultural property that Italy claims as its heritage ought to be restricted from entry into the U.S. unless accompanied by Italian export permits. There is already such an agreement in place, but ancient coins have been exempted twice before in these renewal requests that cover a 5-year window. We have very good reason to believe that Italy and members of the archaeological community will this time seek to add coins to the list of restricted items. There is a period open for public comment on the issue and the best way to comment is by fax. Don't despair, this is VERY easily done. Simply go to the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild web site and using the Ancient Coin Collector's Guild Fax Wizard at
www.vcoins.com/fax. You will be guided through a brief and easy to follow process that sends a free fax to the State Department registering your views. Collectors have only until April 22 to make their views known to the Committee.

Why oppose these import restrictions? Because Roman coins are at the very core of the cultural experience that we all treasure. They have circulated all over the known world in antiquity and since through trade and collector markets. It is impossible to distinguish a Roman coin found in Britain, for example, from exactly the same type, mint, etc found in Italy. Requiring an export permit from Italy on a coin found and legally exported from Britain would not only be impractical, it would not have any legal foundation. Still, any court challenge by an individual is unlikely since the legal costs usually far exceed the value of seized objects. Import restrictions are simply not a viable solution to protecting archaeological sites. They are an idealist panacea that cause far more harm to society than any possible good. Excluding the U.S. collector and trade from the legitimate world market for Roman coins, or unilaterally forcing draconian documentation requirements on Americans, would be grossly prejudicial and would certainly be against the interests of American citizens and their traditional freedoms. Collectors in other nations are not subject to these restrictions, only collectors living in the United States. Restrictions have already been placed on the importing coins from Cyprus and even common 20th century coins of China. Unless this trend is stopped, coin collectors in the United States may no longer have access to older coins of other nations, or will have to pay greatly inflated prices in order to cover the cost of preparing import licenses.

If restrictions are imposed, Customs will treat any coin on the designated list as presumptively stolen from Italy. The importer can only rebut that presumption with an Italian export license or through
certifications of the exporter and importer detailing provenance back to the date when the restrictions were imposed (which is often unavailable-- and even more impossible to procure as time goes on). This rule would only discriminate against American collectors. Collectors in the EU-- including in Italy itself-- do not have to make such a showing when they purchase ancient coins.

While archaeologists are rightly concerned about looting of archaeological sites, the guilty until proven innocent remedy suggested represents overkill and will only act to punish those who
want to abide by the law.

A few items to consider when responding:

1. Coins are very rarely national treasures and most countries of
origin, especially Italy, have large national collections that
represent their ancient coinage.
2. Coins were minted in the millions in ancient times and in most
cases were designed specifically for export. Roman coins
produced in Italy circulated throughout Europe, the Middle East,
and North Africa. If a Roman coin left Italy 2,000 years ago
and is found today in Germany, why should Italy have any claim on
this coin? Further, Customs officials without special numismatic
training would have great difficulty in distinguishing a coin
struck at a Roman mint in London, which would not be subject to
any restriction, from one struck in Rome.
3. Ancient coin collectors respect archaeological sites and in fact
frequently visit and support those sites.
4. If there was not an ancient coin collecting community, most
ancient coins would be melted down for their intrinsic value when
found; thus all of their artistic and historical information would
be lost. In fact, collectors have been the main force over the
past 500 years in preserving this important feature of ancient
civilization.
5. Most ancient coins are found in isolated hoards outside of other
archaeological context.
6. The United States is being singled out among the major coin
collecting countries to impose import restrictions on ancient
coins. These restrictions are not being imposed on collectors in
Europe or other nations. We are being asked to expend our valuable governmental
enforcement resources on an issue which is of no security threat
and where no revenue is involved. These resources could
undoubtedly be better allocated to other troublesome international
issues.


Please take a few minutes and express your views to CPAC. This is our most effective tool to prevent any restrictions to the free international trade that we currently enjoy with ancient coins. Please remember that the deadline for receipt of comments is April 22.

Ancient Coin Collector's Guild Fax Wizard:
www.vcoins.com/fax

You can also fax or Express mail letters directly to the following:

All written materials, including the written texts of oral statements, should be faxed to (202) 632-6300, if 5 pages or less. Written comments greater than five pages in length must be duplicated (20 copies) and mailed to Cultural Heritage Center, SA-5, Fifth Floor, Department of State, Washington, D.C. 20522- 0505. Express mail is recommended for timely delivery.

We simply MUST oppose any expansion of the MOU with Italy to include coins. We must do so with an absolutely resounding voice. EVERY person reading this has an interest in coins, even if you don't collect Roman coins, and needs to make their view known. The entire hobby is being challenged. There is simply nothing more important to do RIGHT NOW than to take five minutes, go to the Ancient Coin Collector's Guild fax wizard and register your concern. Don't wait 'til the 22 April deadline.

Thank you for your support.
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23500 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Will someone please post if the link to the fax wizard is working
thanks
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malissadawn's Avatar
Canada
1931 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add malissadawn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
not working for me. I get this:

A-Major-Threat-To-Coin-Collectors
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Saruma's Avatar
United States
968 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The link seems to be working. I really wish there was a link to the actual legislation being discussed as I get very cautious about activist descriptions of something they don't like. Maybe they are right, but the way discussion of political issues is goes in America these days makes me highly skeptical of any claim without seeing an unbiased presentation of the facts first.


Edit: The top link does NOT work, but the bottom one does.
Edited by Saruma
04/17/2010 6:24 pm
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Halfwitty's Avatar
United States
1523 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halfwitty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Done and done.Let's stop the insanity.Worked for me.
Edited by Halfwitty
04/18/2010 04:42 am
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rggoodie's Avatar
United States
23500 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rggoodie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fixed
Both links now work
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2010  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NO!
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rebelman442's Avatar
United States
37 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  12:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rebelman442 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i would like a link to what is actually being considered by this
Quote:
secretive, unelected panel in Washington DC
. it is not enough to base a decision on the long and rambling opinion of one individual. anyone who just blindly fills out a form and sends a opinion without knowing the facts is
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  02:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To add to this, here is an email that I received from Harlan J Berk-

The U.S. State Department has announced a date of May 6-7 for Cultural Property Advisory Committee hearings on the request for renewal of the Memorandum of Understanding with Italy. Hopefully your eyes are not already glazed over by this first sentence. In practical terms, the U.S. government is about to decide whether antiquities and other forms of cultural property that Italy claims as its heritage ought to be restricted from entry into the U.S. unless accompanied by Italian export permits. There is already such an agreement in place, but ancient coins have been exempted twice before in these renewal requests that cover a 5-year window. We have very good reason to believe that Italy and members of the archaeological community will this time seek to add coins to the list of restricted items. There is a period open for public comment on the issue and the best way to comment is by fax. Don't despair, this is VERY easily done. Simply go to the ACCG web site at http://accg.us and click on the Fax Wizard link (picture of U.S. Capitol Building) on the left side of the page. It says "Fax Your Legislator" but will indeed send your message to the State Department. You will be guided through a brief and easy to follow process that sends a free fax to the State Department registering your views. There are also several direct links below as well.

Why oppose these import restrictions? Because Roman coins are at the very core of the cultural experience that we all treasure. They have circulated all over the known world in antiquity and since through trade and collector markets. It is impossible to distinguish a Roman coin found in Britain, for example, from exactly the same type, mint, etc found in Italy. Requiring an export permit from Italy on a coin found and legally exported from Britain would not only be impractical, it would not have any legal foundation. Still, any court challenge by an individual is unlikely since the legal costs usually far exceed the value of seized objects. Import restrictions are simply not a viable solution to protecting archaeological sites. They are an idealist panacea that cause far more harm to society than any possible good. Excluding the U.S. collector and trade from the legitimate world market for Roman coins, or unilaterally forcing draconian documentation requirements on Americans, would be grossly prejudicial and would certainly be against the interests of American citizens and their traditional freedoms.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16817 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  03:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of years ago, a similar Memorandum of Understanding was signed with Cyprus. Nobody expected coins to be an issue under discussion, but they were. As a result, importing ancient or mediaeval coins from Cyprus or China into the US is now prohibited without a permit (and the probability of Cyprus issuing a permit to a filthy stinkin' coin collector is zero); such items are liable to being seized and sent back to their "country of origin" - whether they were actually acquired there or not. ACCG tested it, and coins were indeed seized under the auspices of this MOU. See this old thread for details on the Cyprus/China case.

Because of this unexpectedly "positive" result obtained by the archaeological protectionists on Cypriot coinage, the precedent has been set - and archaeologists from other nations are now clamouring to get importation of "their" coins by collectors likewise banned. This is what's got ACCG all worried, especially given that the country under discussion now is Italy, the homeland of the Roman Empire. Theoretically, and if the wording of the MOU is nebulous enough, any "Roman" coin could be liable to seizure.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Halfwitty's Avatar
United States
1523 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  04:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halfwitty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rebelman. You will have a space in the drop down box,which is quite wide, to like I did. darn it.
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Peter THOMAS's Avatar
Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't have a problem with nations protecting their cultural heritage, any more than I do with protection of natural heritage. Australia protects both by legislation, and has done so for decades.
Regarding artefacts, I've never heard of restrictions being placed on coins, yet, but I imagine if someone tried to export a 1930 penny or an adelaide pound, there would be an issue.
So far, to the best of my limited knowledge, the Australian legislation has only been used in the case of medals, and aboriginal antiquities.

quote from sap: "...any "Roman" coin could be liable to seizure"
- wrong: only coins not accompanied by a certificate.

What's the big deal ?

Peter in Oz
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16817 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  10:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Australia protects both by legislation, and has done so for decades.

Correct. In Australia, the pertinent legislation is the 1986 Protection of Movable Cultural Heritage Act 1986. It uses the National Cultural Heritage Control List to decide what's of "cultural significance" and what isn't. Class A categories (prohibited to export) are Victoria Crosses, Ned Kelly's armour and aboriginal artifacts. Coins are Class B, requiring a permit if they are "culturally significant", which basically has two definitions: shipwreck coins, and Australian coins that are worth over $15,000 and not represented in at least two of the public coin collections. Under that definition, both 1930 pennies and Adelaide pounds, even holey dollars and dumps, are permissible to export without a permit.

And as far as I'm aware, Australia isn't hunting down and persecuting private citizens in other countries that already own Class A objects. The most we do is occasionally assist Aboriginal delegates in lobbying foreign museums to return aboriginal remains and artifacts.

Quote:
quote from sap: "...any "Roman" coin could be liable to seizure"
- wrong: only coins not accompanied by a certificate.

...and if you're one of those filthy stinkin' coin collectors, you can forget about obtaining a certificate.

Quote:
What's the big deal ?

The big deal is the (potential) wide-ranging scope of these regulations. If I were to travel to the United States and bring with me some of my Italian coins older than 1500 AD, those coins may be liable to seizure and be "sent back" to Italy - whether I had just arrived from Italy or not. A receipt from a coin dealer in Australia, or Britain, or Germany, isn't going to be enough - you'd need a certificate from Italy. Even if the coins had never actually been to Italy.

Example: the primary mint of the early Roman Imperial period was not in Rome itself, but in Lyons, a city currently in France. If I were to go to France, comply with French law and legally obtain a Roman coin minted there, then travel to America with it... my coin could be seized and "sent back" to Italy, just because it's "Roman" - even though neither that coin nor myself had ever been to Italy.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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echizento's Avatar
United States
23731 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2010  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just some food for though. First let me say that I think the ristrictions are wrong and that the government should not have control on what we collect. I however have a problem putting my name on a petition that the government has access too. By signing these petitions you are telling them who you are and giving them your IPO address. So once the bill passes the government just needs to go to the petitions and they know who to go after. I'm not in on this one. You may call this selfish, I call it being self protection.
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e-baguio's Avatar
Philippines
107 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2010  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add e-baguio to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This would have a devastating effect on the collecting of Roman coins by American citizens while citizens of most other countries in the world would continue to enjoy the freedom to purchase and import these coins.


qouted from VCoins

why?
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