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 Replies: 13 / Views: 3,622 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
585 Posts |
8 Reales, Mexico mint with a Java countermark   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
651 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Nice coin. I would suggest that you send that one to NGC or PCGS and try and get it certified as a true example of the Java Countermark. That is a very rare counterstamp and often faked. Your example seems to be a slightly larger countermark than the few others that I have seen but I am in no way an expert on counterstamps. Certifed that coin has high $$ value.
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Valued Member
United States
322 Posts |
Nice counter mark.
I was grown up in Java, my dad and uncles were Gold and Silver dealers. I have seen many Spanish counter marked coins. But I never seen Javanese counter mark. I never heard that the Javanese Sultans ever counter marked coins. It is very interesting.
Samuel Tan
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
585 Posts |
Quote:
Nice coin. I would suggest that you send that one to NGC or PCGS and try and get it certified as a true example of the Java Countermark. That is a very rare counterstamp and often faked. Your example seems to be a slightly larger countermark than the few others that I have seen but I am in no way an expert on counterstamps. Certifed that coin has high $$ value. Do you mean to lock it into the SLAB?!?  I hate that stupid thing from the bottom of my heart. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
turtleoverhead, I also have no love of slabs (over 250 8 reales in my collection, less than 10 in slabs)....however on a coin like that where the counterstamp is what gives it value, if you ever want to sell the coin, you will never get "true" value from a raw coin. Sentencing that coin to imprisonment in a slab certifying the counterstamp as genuine will increase number of people who would bid on a coin like that if it went up for sale. If you have no intention of selling let the coin run free, but you might want to get some expert opinions on the counterstamp if you haven't already. Either way, great coin!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3499 Posts |
turtleoverhead- Absolutely beautiful. That would be a very nice 8 even sans counterstamp. Thanks for showing us this!
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
It's a beautiful 8 with a nice countermark. First time I have seen a Java CM.. With regards to having it slab, another option is that you might as well have books and make an in-depth study with Java countermarks before going to a third party grading company. Because I have come across lately at heritage auction files regarding a slabbed Philippine Countermark 8 reales , it's true the 8 reales is authentic but sad to note a TPG company authenticated it even if the F.7.o countermark is obviously fake (it's still at heritage auction files). I have also seen an actual slabbed countermark coin of the same characteristics, and this happens because these TPG companies normally do not have yet experts on these counterstamps and countermarked coins. Thanks for sharing the picture...  |
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Valued Member
United States
322 Posts |
This is my opinion:
The coin was minted in 1798, the counter stamp must be done after that.
There was only one Sultanate in Java, that split in to two due to family feud. Mataram Kingdom, one is Yogyakarta and the other is Surakarta Sultanate. At that time Indonesia was Dutch Colony. I think, either Sultanate or wealthy businessman would counter stamp coins. There was no Javanese wealthy businessman I can recall, they are many Chinese businessman that work with the Dutch. The Dutch prefer to deal, then appointed Chinese Businessman as their agents. But the Chinese do not use Sanskrit language, nor write in Sanskrit/Javanese. This language did not use anymore since Indonesia's Independence. I was thought Sanskrit as "knowledge" language briefly in Elementary School, but I never really took it seriously. Too bad, I could not identify the letters.
Even though Mataram is a Muslim Sultanate, they use Sanskrit/Javanese language, since Java was Buddhist/Hindu country before Islam came to Java. In fact until today, the people of Java are Muslim but mixed with Hindu believe.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
The letters are Arabic. The Java counterstamp is well documented, there is even an example listed with photo in the " Trade dollars of the world" chapter of "Standard Catalog of Mexican Coins" by Colin Bruce. The Java counterstamp is rare and that coin, if the counterstamp is real (and I have no expertise to determine yes or no) then that coin is a prize for turtleoverhead's collection. One of the most fascinating aspects of collecting 8 reales is that they were truly the coin of the world in their day and circulated throughout all the trade routes. Collecting them with all the known counterstamp is a great challenge. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
585 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Very interesting article. The specimen pictured in the Colin Bruce book is a 1775 Carlos III portrait dollar.
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts |
Quote:
The Java counterstamp is rare and that coin, if the counterstamp is real (and I have no expertise to determine yes or no) then that coin is a prize for turtleoverhead's collection. Hi jcfransch, I'm quite curious about its cost, how much would this 8 reales Carolus IIII with Java countermark easily fetch in the market nowadays? or anyone could tell?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
870 Posts |
You can always take it out of the slab - but not a bad idea to get it certified anyway! Helps the coins provenance in the long run, whatever you choose to do with it!
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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,622 |
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Posted 04/28/2010 11:18 am
