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 Replies: 12 / Views: 1,722 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts |
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
420 Posts |
I'm seeing 2 different dies... i don't know about wear, but the spacing of the digits is different to me, looking at it a couple times- the digits seem to be the same size, farther apart in the lower set the lower set ( to me ) looks more worn, but even the angle of the 0 is different can you shift the lower set to the left a little to line up the first 1 against the grid lines? --- maybe it's just too many long shifts, too many days in a row without a day off  |
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Valued Member
Canada
168 Posts |
looks like the top pic is angled slightly
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
This is a much better like to like example.
We all know they used dozens of die pairs for each coin. There's no way the dates are going to align perfectly with every new die considering how manual the process the was at that time.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1418 Posts |
They are different dies. Look at the ones.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1353 Posts |
Except for re-punched digits in the dies, all four digits of the date on 1901 cents originated in the matrix and have the same spacing. The two photos above are not displayed at exactly the same size and rotational orientation.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
My take on it;
First two and last two digits won't necessarily line up across dies since punch angle throw allows minor variances. Example: If you put a needle through a rigid hole the placement of the tip will be allowed to vary with how close the template is to the surface and how thick the guide material is overall. In this case, affecting the angles are the depth of the template/jig/matrix/whatever you call it they used to try and align them and the jigs used to hold it all in place while it was getting worked on.
Perfection is not possible with this hand tooling. Variations will exist not just on repunch but will coincide with the actual number of dies the mint reports using (if they reported it accurately and they definitely made mistakes sometimes). Some will be closer than others just through sheer chance.
I submit that the process overall was chaotic and fast paced with only passing regard to quality. Really they weren't after perfection either, these weren't copper gaskets used in industrial high pressure applications.
As an aside and at the risk of being flamed to heck and gone ; I don't really like early coinage, never have. Mints always seem two decades behind manufacturing practices used in industry at any given time. I know a lot of people seek out and revel in the differences but I just look at them and think how sloppy the work was in comparison to the importance (to me) of a country's currency. I guess coinage as one of the first true mass produced items didn't get a lot of respect or R&D money. Make it cheap and get it out into the hands of the spenders.
That's the great thing about this hobby though, there's something for everyone and I mean that with the best thoughts.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
The matrix for the 1901 reverse was sunk with only the digit 1. So the 1 is in the same place as for previous years.
The last three digits were hand punched into the matrix (master die in the more modern vernacular). All four digits were transferred to the punch (hub) and on to each die sunk by the punch (hub). As a result, all four digits on each 1901 reverse die had exactly the same locations, spacing, and orientation.
Along the way to minting coins, many things occurred which altered the appearance of the digits:
* The punch wore and suffered damage over time, which meant the appearances of the digits on the punch (hub) changed slightly over time.
* Not all dies were sunk with exactly the same pressure. Since the digits were beveled, this affected the appearances of the digits in the dies.
* Sometimes, before each die was put into service, the engravers repaired weak or damaged individual digits in the dies using single digit manual punches struck by a hammer. This changed the appearance of each affected digit.
* The dies wore and suffered damage over time, which meant the appearance of the digits on each die changed slightly over time.
* Not all coins were struck with the same pressure. Since the digits were beveled, this affected the appearances of the digits on the coins.
* The coins wore in circulation. Since the the digits were beveled, the appeances of the digits changed as the coin wore.
These things also explain the differences in the 1899 cent of the other post. 1899 dies had the first three digits fixed and the last was hand punched into each die.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
Oops. The 1900 matrix was sunk with only the digit 1. The 1901 matrix was sunk with 190_. The rest of the previous post is correct.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
OK, if I read what you're saying correctly the first three digits will always be exactly spaced from their centres. Despite all the other variables you listed, the exact space from center of each numeral should not change. The position and angle of the last digit can change since it was manually added.
In this year, how many times was that last digit added? 4M issued, approx 60K per die? 64-70 times?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
Edited. I just got home and referred back to my book. I was shooting from memory before. The first three digits are fixed and inherited from the 1900 matrix. The fourth digit was added to a 1901 matrix, so all four 1901 digits are fixed in the dies, except for any drift caused by the variables I listed above. Yes there were probably 60+ 1901 dies. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
05/27/2010 9:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1248 Posts |
wow, for sure , for a simple electrician.... to much to understand and comprehend.....
you guys are obviously highly trained engineers who know an awful lot about metals and how metal behaves in some situations.
when I posted these different cents, I did honestly NOT hope for replies like that...
all I wanted to do is to create some interest, as the forum seemed to go in a "slow Motion" state.
And of course , I was hoping to have some varieties, yet unknown.......
have a ton more.....
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Replies: 12 / Views: 1,722 |
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Posted 05/27/2010 05:31 am
