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Can Anyone Explain?

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Pillar of the Community
Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2010  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking at it I still thinks it's a penny over a dime. Nickle and copper both become work hardened and when I look over the sample pics the only place I see good flow is in the center where the majority of the nickel remains after deing struck as a dime. It's pretty thin, it wouldn't react very orderly to being hit with the penny dies.

The vast area of the bluenose detail remains intact on the side of the dime that also has no rim. Drop a dime planchet onto a penny sized die, it's going to be off center and become forcibly extruded into that area when the dies hit. This is in keeping with that photo.

I further think the doubling of the rim indicates truly that it was pinched in there at an angle and only lightly struck on the one side with only the major details showing as some extrusion/flow took place.

I think it's legit, it looks and represents itself as a piece of work hardened, thin nickel that was hit again at an angle.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2010  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsrfun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ugly, are you saying the 10 cent strike was first?
Pillar of the Community
Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2010  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm saying it's a complete dime that was normally produced and then hit as a penny while pinched on one side. That's what I said the first time too. I'm just explaining how I see the metal moving in the circumstances that we know occurs during minting.

If this were silver or copper I'd be... less inclined to think that it couldn't be easily done at home. But because it's nickel and the nickel is behaving correctly for what would be those circumstances, I think it's OK.

Edit for spelling of nickel, "Typos are Us"
Edited by Ugly
06/12/2010 9:54 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2010  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsrfun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, I understand your point, but there are too many unexplained markers which scream home made. i.e. the leaf of the cent rev is struck fully at its deepest point (of the die) but parts of the legend are weak? Metal will (as you know) take the path of least resistance....like water/electricty,pnuematics (over simplification of course)......this is home made look again out front of the boat........flat no detail, but same depth has detail .125" away? Rockered
Previously Ousted
Canada
398 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2010  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coingirl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coinsrfun,
I am fairly new here, just check in sometimes and follow interesting posts.
Noticed that you are obviously very experienced with error coins. Do you collect them also?
If so, do you examine each one of them and scrutinize their history, AND how they became errors? WHAT in fact are coin errors, and what are not? And what are the coins that are NOT errors but are as you call them: home made, or in other posts "basement jobs"? Are they then forgeries and of interest to the RCMP?
I have examined the pictures posted and I disagree in a few important points with your evaluations.
I am not going into the ifs and the buts and why and why not. However, I have some error coins, some 5 cent and 10 cent, some dollars etc. And, sometimes I just give in and say: nice coin, I have it, and after examining it I say to myself: I think I know how it happened.
I, and probably about 99.9% of the readers here, believe that NOBODY within their right and sound mind will make any type of die to make a few 10 cent pieces, unless it is for substantial financial gain. If this would be the case, then I am sure, OTHER coins would be known and in the possession of collectors, and NOT in circulation. However, you seem to always come up with this "home made " thing when others do not agree with you. Previous posts strongly suggest that.
I would like to ask you to explain and proof your claim that this coin is a home made item and not what it should be IF things were other than what they are!
I would like to know HOW it was made and what kind of tooling would be needed to achieve such a home made result. Knowing this would most likely rule out the so far unsupported "home made " claim.
In your last post you are saying that error coins are made all the time.
If so, whay do we not find more?

This coin has been struck more than once on each side, 2 times for sure. And it is rotated before the second strike. Has anyone considered a 3rd strike? Maybe, but unlikely.
If I would have to agree with someone who chimed in here, it would be UGLY. His theory and how it occurred makes a lot more sense than it being a basement job.
Coinsrfun, you make strong comments and you most often disallow the valued opinions of others without being able to conclusively explain your claims beyond ANY doubt.
Lets hear from you
C

Pillar of the Community
Ugly's Avatar
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2010  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note that I am conversing here in order to put and get as much information as possible, not engaging in some adversarial format. Thesis and Antithesis, it's the only way to achieve understanding (Synthesis).


Quote:
parts of the legend are weak


This makes sense to me, the legend is at an area of our angle struck coin that is thin. A full stuck dime would actually be too thin in this area for anything to be totally obliterated by metal movement, unlike the very center high points. It's work hardened, not a fresh planchet.


Quote:
this is home made look again out front of the boat........flat no detail, but same depth has detail .125" away?


Again, I like this fact. If you do a quick laser scan and get the the three dimensions of the boat you can calculate the approximate the density of metal in that area. The sharp devices hang on because they are hardest.

The area you dubbed "chemo hair" is consistent as well since the smaller planchet is actually going to MOVE as it gets struck and cause smearing. As you said, metal flows to the area of least resistance and this area is actually open/unfilled inside the penny die at the point in time in which pressure is applied. Without enough metal depth in that area to give it high relief (it cannot fill completely) yet the high points of the sails are hardest and act as a flow guard.

Nothing about this is scaring me. If *I* were doing a basement job you can be sure I would have reheated that planchet before I struck it again. Evidence of this seems missing because the high points remain hardened. Further, the smeared areas are also comforting for the same reasons - they smeared while the planchet was moving and it was consistent on both sides in the thinnest area that would experience the most movement.

Previously Ousted
Canada
398 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2010  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coingirl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
UGLY, well said and explained. makes sense even for a Coin chick like me with no technical degree, but a very active mind and understanding.
C
Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2010  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsrfun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With so many man made error coins being produced everyday with home made soft and hard dies, I will post my last on this thread by saying that there is absolutely too much undamaged detail in the 10 cent rev for a cent to have been over struck on top of it. All the rigging is not even smeared then disappears. I have double flip strikes from 1926 which I posted here. As well as numerous legitament errors in nickel. IMO this one is homemade.Ugly, I have attached a photo of my 26 FDS. Not the best image as the coin is at CCCS getting hard holdered. Please note the detail cancellation by the second strike, and these years were notorious for weak strikes.

Can-Anyone-Explain??????
Edited by coinsrfun
06/13/2010 2:51 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
693 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2010  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsrfun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For Coingirl. Yes, I am an error collector. I check each coin with its own merits or lack there of. I have discussed this coin with HHB via the telephone before I posted my thoughts. For the record..........I own a Very extensive collection of 5 cent error coins. I own other denominations as well but centre on my 5 cents. I look at the coin at face value (pun intended) and attempt to attribute the "issue" to the mint. That is the key to error confirmation. If I can justify that ...yes, it could have been made this way......Cool!! If not.......Then I research why not....as to this coin....please look at the 10 rev. The schooner. Full detail but only on top of the bust(the high point)of the underlying strike. Notice the hair detail involved with boat...between the details? But now out in front of the boat (which would be the flat or fields of the rev die) it is flat like the fields of a 10 cent coin. This teaches me the 10 cent coin was struck second. Do the same logic on the other side, and the Rev 1 cent is the second strike. Mint, not with the rim damage. It is a squeeze job. If I have offended you or anyone......Sorry, HHB new my thoughts on this coin before I typed it. For the record, I have asked 2 other error dudes from CCRS and they both agree....home made.
Pillar of the Community
livingdinasaur's Avatar
United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2010  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingdinasaur to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had the impression that there was something odd about this coin, and after reading the posts, both pro, and con, I have to go along with the "squeeze' theory. My reasoning is just an opinion, and not based on much theory, However I have a couple 'mules, (in the FE/IHC areeas that aree mint made, and recognized as "mules. The details are not real clear, and like this,coin are confusing. I also have another 11-cent coin that was made with two coins stuck together. Anyone with access to a body shop tool, known as a "porta-power', can apply many tons of pressure to a couple of coins pm=laced on top od the other, ans squeezes. It WILL make somedefinite markings that don't eeallt belong where they end up. I, too am relatively new to the collecting, (seriously speaking), as I have collected ofer the years, and ended up selling the collections 'to feed the kids", on more than one ocassion. I have been into "errors, and varieties', less than five years. Most of you are from several to many, many years younger, but I feel that if I can learn something, anything from another, my day has not been a total loss. I am still waiting to see what tomorrow has to offer. I JUST LOOKED UP TO SEE WHERE THE CURSER WAS, AND FIND I AM IN "CAPS"! PLEASE EXCUSE. I AM ALSO LEGALLY BLIND, AND THE KEYBOARD IS A LOT LIKE THE FREEWAYS, A LOT OF TRAFFIC, THAT HAS TO BE CONTENDED WITH. I AM NOT A TYPIST, EITHER, SO TYPOS ARE A MATTER OF DACT, RATHER THAN INTENTIONAL.
iT IS GREAT TO AGREE, AND EVEN GREATER TO DIEAGREE, WHEN EVERYONE RESPECTS THE POSITION, AND OPINION OF THE OTHERS.
dICK
Valued Member
TroyMosher's Avatar
Canada
90 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2010  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TroyMosher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen one like this before!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1248 Posts
 Posted 07/09/2010  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hhbkiddo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Troy, like which? there were two coins, mine and the one from CRF.
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