Mexico 1867 1 Peso Authenticity Question.

I agree with jfransch. Some ebay dealers will try to excuse the characteristic surface of cast coins as saying that the coin has some 'surface porosity'.

8 R€­ÅL€Š Sorry to say but you have one of the most common forgeries made in the 1960s there. The coin is a cast copy with "incorrect" reeding applied to obscure the edge seam. I have not seen one of these in about 10 years or more. They do not match the sophistication of the more Modern forgeries made with finer grained plastic materials.

The detail in the center of the shield is simply missing because it was moldied in a grainy material using a real coin. This type of early transfer process was rather crude and the details that should be there ARE NOT. But in the 50s and early 60s it was a common technology for low value numismatic forgery. The forgers figured (correctly I would add) that few people would really look too closely. It was a couple dollar type item but cost a few pennies to make.

Based on the weight you quote, 26.6 grams, the coin is most likely slightly oversized to compensate for the metal. These cast copies were typically NOT silver. That would have eliminated the profit margin.

Normally, a white metal often containing zinc and antimony was used but I do not see the typical zinc blooms here. The dead color points to a cast forgery as well.

The edge is critical. On the earliest copies I have observed, a plain edge was common. The forgers didn't do much other than grind off the seam. (I have one or two with the seam). But after buyers caught on the forgers did start adding reeds. But the reeds are typically wrong. So wrong that you do not need to do a reed count. (Counting the reeds is personally distasteful to me because I always get distracted. But these were so common in the 1970s in Boston that I got used to it. It seemed that we always got one or two each week and I got stuck doing a reed count just to be sure. SG was NOT used back then at least by the dealer I worked with.)

After casting it was normal to use a grinding wheel to smooth the edge of the peso. Then the reeds were applied in one of several ways. There are actually hand applied reeds - cut in ONE by ONE with a file. This is a rather scarce type and I buy many that I see of this type becuse of the work that went into it. I marvel at the waste of time. I have several 1866 and one 1867 with hand cut reeds. I have never seen a second 1867.

The second way reeds were added was a roller applied edge which resulted in a single overlap in the reeds somewhere along the edge. These came in several spacings including one that was very nearly correct. BUT correct reeding is uniform around the whole coin and there are NO OVERLAPS. This method is common - I own 4 using slightly different spacings and shapes. The final method also very common is the ring die. In this method the completed casting is driven (pressed) through a funnel shaped ring which has the reeds cut into the inside of the ring. As the coin is pressed through the ring die it cuts the reeds like grooves into the metal. The metal being pushed aside will leave two tell-tale signs. First a seam at the top center of the reed where the two metal curls meet. Second the ends of the reeds where the coin enters and exits the ring die will have split or open ends. For these 2 reasons the grooves are often cut OVER DEPTH and then the tops of the reeds are ground down on a grinding wheel to remove the mid line and split ends. This last method is preferred by the Chinese and is still in use. But it results in a V shaped grove.

Based on the photo of the edge I think you have an early attempt at a ring die application because of the apparent grinding lines on the tops of the reeds. I could be wrong about this. So please look for a seam (overlap) in the reeds as well.

Specific Gravity testing should conclusively identify this forgery and possibly provide a clue to the metal used.

This forgery is NOT CONTEMPORARY and while they do sell well, I see no real value in them even as early numismatic copies.

True contemporary forgeries of the Maximillian Peso are limited to Mo issues to the best of my knowledge and they are RARE. An 1867 or a copy from Guanajuato would be spectacular if it was actually contemporary. It would be like finding a Contemporary Hookneck 8R from a mint other than Mexico City. Something that has NEVER HAPPENED.

8 R€­ÅL€Š I just noticed one other point in your original letter that should be commented on:




First of all the standard peso and the 8R had the same physical parameters so there should be no appreciable difference in size. If there is and the peso is larger - it is a fake.

But it is not so much the size of the coin as the metal used to make it that effects the pitch of the ring. Re-reading what you said I suspect that the coin is high in copper. Copper rings at a very high pitch compared to silver. Some copper alloys (for example brass) can RING LIKE A BELL. Hence bell metal.

So the fact that the coin Rings but at a "HIGHER PITCHED SOUND" is a great indicator of potential forgery. Coins of the same diameter, thickness and density should have the same ring unless the coin was struck on a very poorly made planchet or it has been drilled, heated or has been altered in some substantial way.

The most sensitive of the factors is not size but alloy.

The German silver family especially those high in zinc content, pewters, lead and antimony all will not ring well at all. Those are the dull thudders.

The bronzes, brasses and coppers and most copper-nickel coins will ring but the pitch is higher.

Steels may be made to ring but the duration will be much shorter than silver or copper.

Try droppeing a few world crowns of known metal content on a hard surface like a granite countertop or a glass display top and you will be able to tell the difference readily. In most coin shops the glass countertop is fine for a quick test. Use coins in the 5 for a $1 junk box for this kind of testing. I don't recommend droping a really high grade or expensive coin. You might end up owning it or at least getting asked to leave.

If it is smaller than the Mexico City 8R - it simply has to be too thick. If it is the correct thickness I would love to know the SG. Because based on the appearance and ring it should be copper or brass but they have SG's of 8.9 or so. This means that to get the weight right they HAVE to be BIGGER than an 8R.

What is the correct measurement for the thickness of the 8 Reale/Peso?

Here are a couple pics of the edge compared to a 8R, I couldnt get the camera to focus well on both of them but you can still tell that the fake peso is slightly thicker.

Also a pic of the fake peso on top of a 8R.

You can tell that the diamater is slightly smaller than the 8R.