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 Replies: 41 / Views: 13,599 |
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Valued Member
United States
314 Posts |
All - Robbudo stated the following in an ealier post about an 1808 Half Cent. "According to the Rotateddies census, between 81 and 200 Half Cents from 1808 were minted with rotated dies between 90 and 180 degrees." Figured I would put this in a new post for all to see. Robbudo - can you tell me where you find the rotated dies census? I was unaware of such a database, but have quite a few rotated dies - some near 180 and would be curious to know if they have significant added value. Thanks for any help you can provide. Can a coin be rotated over 180 degrees? I have always thought the answer to that would be "no". Please advise |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Can you have a rotation greater than 180 degrees? Well yes and no. There have been two different "schools" of die rotation measurement. One of them starts from the "proper position and measures the offset and specifies whether the rotation is in a clockwise or counterclockwise direction. Under this system 180 degrees is the maximum possible. The other system measures from the starting point but only in a clockwise rotation. So in that system if the top of the coin is supposed to be at the 12:00 position but instead it is at 9:00 it would be said to have a 270 degree rotation. I believe the second system is the older of the two, but I think the first one is more widely used today Rotated die census (has not been updated since Nov 2009) http://www.rotateddies.com/Edited by Conder101
08/18/2010 2:10 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts |
Conder101 covered the bases but I'll still give my Two Cents as I love rotated dies. You can have a coin rotated more than 180 degrees, but you would never know! Is it rotated 10 degrees clockwise or 350 degrees counterclockwise? The rotation of 10 degrees is much much more likely, so the convention is to give the rotation up to and including 180 degrees. The best way to note rotated is to say the amount of rotation (up to and including 180 degrees and clockwise or counterclockwise (unless it is exactly 180 degrees of course, in which case you don't need to state direction). I ask for clarification on about 75% of auctions I see on ebay with a coin with a rotated die. Mental note: a 90 degree rotation is NOT the same as a 90% rotation. The great thing I find about rotated dies is that the supply is low but the demand is <really> low. I universally pick up rotated dies in the the R6 rarity range (between 13 and 30 minted) for $30 (when the coin is worth about $2 to $5 without the rotation). On the other end of the rarity/value scale, I just picked up a beautiful 1868 Proof-65 RB (NGC) Indian cent, rotated 170 deg (approximately 90 minted) for $80 above graysheet value without the rotation. DCreek1968, if you have any Indian cents with rotations above 90 degrees (except 1897 - I should write more about this date later), I'm interested in knowing what dates you have. I think I have about 40 rotated Indians thus far and can give you a very fair assessment of what you can get for them. I'll pay a premium if you have one of the dates I need. Edited by robbudo
08/18/2010 3:40 pm
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Valued Member
United States
376 Posts |
Robbudo, how far along are you in your rotated die set? I see you have 40 rotated Indians but some are probably doubles I'm assuming. I have a grand total of ONE rotated Indian. lol
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2424 Posts |
i have a few Buffalo nickel rotated dies.. worth anything? I have some pics up on my webalbum |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts |
Buffalos are common with rotations of 45 degrees or less. Got one with at least a 90 degree rotation SDcoinguy?
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Valued Member
 United States
314 Posts |
Robbudo - my die rotations are in the Half Cents, large cents, and Two Cents. probably have a total of 5-10. Honestly don't recall ever seeing a rotated Indian, but that would be for lack of looking probably. Didn't mean to mislead anyone with my comment about having a number of them. I guess it's all relative. Will keep my eyes open for Indians from now on. Many thanks to you, Conder and the others for the comments. Have added another favorites website to my list. |
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
I have an 1897 IHC that I'll post. It is 180 degrees rotated. There is CW and CCW rotation. swcoin.ecrater.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2424 Posts |
some of the buffalos I got are almost 90.. id say a good 45 I might have a picture or two in my picasa google album I linked here on my other topic
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
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Can a coin be rotated over 180 degrees? I just love to rhetorically ponder stuff that deals with personal perception and semantics like this (or is the glass half full or half empty?). For all practical purposes of identification, Conder is 360 degrees CW correct (all bases covered as robbudo implies). A reference must always be established, or at least a 'perception' of reference. My perception might be that the degree of rotation would depend on how many times the operator rotated (for whatever pointless reason) the die while fastening it to the press. Two turns right, means that the die is at 720 degrees CW, although in the finished product, this appears to be zero. As for the glass, the reference would be 'did the glass start out filled or empty'? If it started out filled (full), then it must be 'emptied' to arrive at 'half empty'. If it started out as an empty glass, then it must be 'filled' to arrive at 'half full'. Direction from reference is important (just like going CW or CCW). Both coin and glass scenarios are all a matter of perception, but to be completely accurate, a reference (base, or starting point) must be determined. To communicate in society, some things don't really matter (like the glass), but some things do (like the degree of rotation CW or CCW). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts |
BIG777bill - many of my rotated Indians are doubles/triples. But I don't really mind and probably won't ever stop acquiring them. The copper nickel ones are much more common to find rotated (at least 1860 to 1864), the 1864-L are actually common with huge rotations (people mistakenly think they are worth a ton, but they're not. you can actually find 2 or 3 1864-L's at any given time on ebay). and then I think the dies for the 1897 were fixed in the rotated position of 175 degrees for many many strikes and I have a handful of them. |
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Valued Member
United States
397 Posts |
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(or is the glass half full or half empty?). Neither. The glass is twice as big as it needs to be. Sorry. I couldn't resist. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
The glass is twice as big as it needs to be.   |
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Valued Member
United States
314 Posts |
Waredu, that is hilarious. I"mgoing to have to use that on my daughters. They love a good quote.
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New Member
United States
12 Posts |
Rotated Dies... I collect all coins with rotated dies; especially Morgans. My favorite is a 1878-CC MS-63, VAM 22 with Rotates Dies. The rotation is a little more than 90%. This is a unique coin, in my opinion; only one has been reported to date. On the rotation, some people use the bottom of the coin to determine CW or CCW... some people use the top of the coin. Logic says use the top. My coin would be 270 degrees CW or 90 degrees CCW. The reason why the certification says Rotated Dies is because who can determine whether it is the obverse or reverse that is rotated? Most people look at the Obverse FIRST and thus when they turn the coin over... AH HA...Rotation. But just reverse the order and what do you get? Rotated Dies are errors and not varieties. I think someone mentioned that earlier. Think about the minting process. An error is a singular event that does not include a defect in the die (pairs). A variety is created when something is wrong with the die/dies. Take the 1955 double die cent; it is often called an error but it is actually a variety. Why? The pair of Obverse die that created the doubling was defective. The most numerous Rotated dies I have found and posses is 1. Buffalo nickels2. Bust half dollars 3. Morgan dollarsFinally, I have seen less and less of true Rotated Dies since the Mint started the single squeeze minting process. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2424 Posts |
great info morgan. most of my buffalos are slightly rotated! and some more-so.. I wonder why this is?
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Replies: 41 / Views: 13,599 |
Posted 08/18/2010 3:36 pm
