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VAMs. Where Is The Hobby Headed?

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Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Assembling a set of Morgan or Peace dollars can be very rewarding. Assembling a VAM set is doubly so. You are putting together very difficult to locate varieties seldom seen and seldom noticed. As a vammer you are on the hunt for them. Moreover,as you learn more about vams you are pitting your wit, mental and visual acuity against dealers who want to make money. Let's be clear on this point, if given half a chance they will try to make money at your expense. Dealers are a tough group but there are ways to minimize your exposure to bad coins and bad deals. I will discuss later tactics to help minimize your exposure to bad coins and bad deals.
The thing you need to look for is many do not care about vams or refuse to take the time to learn about vams. When this occurs, this is a prime hunting ground in your pursuit of hard to locate vams.

There is another group that you can use as a resource and this is the dealer /collector.
Many of these as collectors have plateaued and realizing they can not continue to collect are selling their collection.
Then you have within that grouping a sub group of collector / dealers who are selling only their duplicates or under coins to help finance their hobby and purchase higher priced coins.

My next discussion will be about plateauing.



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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2010  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Plateau: to reach a state or level of little or no growth or decline, esp. to stop increasing or progressing; remain at a stable level of achievement; to level off.


In many discussion with my VAM friends, there is a constant theme that each of us individually have had to address, Not all of us have addressed that issue the same. I am fortunate in that I have two mentors and friends to guide me in my VAM education.

One of my friends has assembled a Morgan dollar set in uncirculated except for the four most expensive. That was his first plateau. He dealt with that plateau by assembling a full set of clashed E Morgans except for the elusive 1889-CC VAM 4 A. No longer able to continue in that pursuit he then put together all of the entire stages of 1887-P VAM 13. Then all of the iterations of 1886-O VAM 11. Then he put his talent to collecting Peace dollars and discovered after the Morgan dollars that the detail was too mushy and they gave him headaches. He continues his research.
My point here, is that he continued in the hobby by doing research and adding to the knowledge base of the hobby.

My other mentor has one of the most fascinating collections of clashed Morgan dollars I have ever seen. Like my other mentor, he also collects clashed E Morgan dollars as well. He even has a doubled clashed E as well. He is missing only two for his set.

He has hit a plateau and isn't sure if he wants to continue in the hobby or not.

When you plateau, you also come to point where you assess what you have done. Moreover, you look at the hobby and see where it is headed. He has looked around the hobby and sees the contradictions. He had always assumed that there would be growth in the hobby and after he was gone, his wife would be able to cash in his collection and be able to enjoy a nice life on the proceeds. He has since reassessed that view. He is afraid his wife without VAM education will be taken to the cleaners by an unscrupulous dealer. His wife or his children have no desire to learn about VAMs or coin collecting in general. His coins are mostly "raw". By that, they are mostly in 2 X 2's with only a portion of the coins graded and holdered by the upper tier third party grading companies.
Virtually all of these coins are hard to find VAMs, in some cases ultra rare VAMs.
I believe him to be correct in his assessment. Now what should he do or you and I for that matter?
This is an aspect in our hobby all of us must deal with.

Edited by Ozland
09/07/2010 12:11 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/07/2010  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Now what should he do or you and I for that matter?
This is an aspect in our hobby all of us must deal with.


Like every other aspect of life, the only advice I consider appropriate is, "Make the personal investment of time and effort to meditate. Think about who you are, what you want, and proceed in the direction best for you alone." Explore your motivations. How important is the objective learning process? How important the physical legacy you leave those who will still be here when you go?

The answer will be different for each of us, and there are enough of us so that the overall state of the hobby will not be affected by our individual decisions.

Look in the mirror, and do what is right only for the one you see there.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wise and sagely advice by both here: with this economy, it hinders most who have little to spend, I am always the glutton for a shiny silver dollar...searching for a good buy and VAM, with work of little I have to cut back in my endeavours, but I know too I can never complete any real collection..Still this does not detour me from learning and researching to expand my knowledge in what interests me...
one day perhaps I will come to a plateau, but one can come and go in his hobbies..it does not have to be all or nothing......there are times when you have the time, and times in life where you don't. I started collecting in the 60's...and moved on.and came back to it, perhaps I will move on, but would come back to it when I can....Knowledge is king when you can apply it at the given time.....it doesn't have to be a full time deal....sure there are those who do to make the bucks, only because they have the bucks to play the game...for most of us, learning is part of the hobby necessary to insure we are not being taken......there is enough trouble with the grading systems by which we dire to value an agreed price and the tiers or where one stands in there buying power. Retail? grey sheet? or some guide in between....These to are knowledge
one must aquire in order to have a value to what one buys....Many of the guides are hidden to the common individual...to the extent one must purchase at the full price, but never can sell them for what you pay for them......and attribution services pray on the unknowledgable for hopes of increasing there investment....But this is normal in any interest of collecting...Any comodity...The plateau is different to all of us who collect for many different reasons....each will have his own ant hill to climb...
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Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I met a vammer who once told me VAMs saved his life in the sense that as a collector he had plateaued and had no where to go. Everyone's coin collecting 'needs' are different. This is someone who really enjoys looking for and finding VAMs. In his case, it is not so much having as is the wanting. It is the thrill of hunt that gives him satisfaction. It doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate having, but he enjoys matching his VAM knowledge skill set against other vammers and dealers alike. I very much admire what he has done for he is one of the true collectors willing to spend the really large amounts of money to put together one of the all time great Morgan dollar VAM super sets.

So plateauing is something we all have to deal with, whether it is reduced circumstances from a slow down in the economy, divorce, more pressing needs such as college education for the children, a new car, vacation or any of the other myriad pressing needs or wants we all have.

What I have been impressed with are those that VAM enjoy it so much. In my correspondence with Leroy Van Allen, he wrote that vamming has been a most enjoyable intellectual pursuit that has allowed him to stay fresh in the hobby.
What a wonderful comment!
Staying fresh in any hobby or pursuit is intensely satisfying. So it is with me and VAMs. I feel like a young boy fresh with the wonder of these beautiful, heavy and 'real money' historic artifacts finding them for the first time.

And I would be remiss if I did not tell you about the wonderful friends I made who share this same passion. I could give up vamming, but I could not give up my friends.
My collecting experience was done pretty much in isolation. Discovering VAMs was a real revelation. But in this life's journey I discovered something more satisfying than VAM collecting. It is the friends that I have made who share the same passion! I could never go back to working on my hobby in isolation again. When I say isolation, there were no other people I knew who collected Morgan dollars that I could share with.


My next installment will be things you can do as a beginning vammer (tactics wise) to help prevent you (and your money)from being taken by dealers who are out to maximize their profits at your expense.
Edited by Ozland
09/08/2010 6:44 pm
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SeatedNut's Avatar
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2797 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SeatedNut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I met a vammer who once told me VAMs saved his life in the sense that as a collector he had plateaued and had no where to go. Everyone's coin collecting 'needs' are different. This is someone who really enjoys looking for and finding VAMs. In his case, it is not so much having as is the wanting. It is the thrill of hunt that gives him satisfaction. It doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate having, but he enjoys matching his VAM knowledge skill set against other vammers and dealers alike. I very much admire what he has done for he is one of the true collectors willing to spend the really large amounts of money to put together one of the all time great Morgan dollar VAM super sets.


Hey Terry,

That's me! Except for the large amounts of $$$ and super set thingy.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A lot of people fit the description. If Leroy Van Allen can stay fresh with this hobby after sixty plus years, who am I to argue otherwise? After all variety is the spice of life.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2010  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My personal experience with vams is this. I have always loved Morgan dollars. They are beautiful works of art. I have always loved varieties and had an eye for them.
I like coins that are lip clashed, that are "busy" with a lot of different things going on.
VAMs for me was as natural as a duck is to water.

But to be successful you have to have an eye for detail with good memorization skills. You have to be able to accurately grade the coin you are seeking.

I would study ten coins that were on my hit list to locate and that is what I would go after. I call this the hunt and peck method, as I go to many different local and out of state brick and mortar (B&M's) coin shops and inspect the coins I am looking to buy in hand. It is a slow method but it has its advantages. (1) I know what I am buying (2) By inspecting it coin in hand I don't get any surprises. I get to grade it critically and also VAM it. (3) While I have never been a person that goes a lot to coin shows, what I have noticed on the coin shows I have been to is the coins tend to be picked over.

It is a slow method but I am not in a race except with myself.
Edited by Ozland
09/08/2010 10:46 pm
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/09/2010  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let's discuss things you can do to minimize your exposure to keep you from buying bad coins and having bad deals and overall bad experience with VAMs.

(1) Define your collecting goals. Many of you will fail to do this as most work on the axiom of: "if I like it, I will buy it. No one tells me what to do." It is perfectly fine that you do this but in the process of doing this, just remember this: you become every one's legal lawful prey.
(2) learn as much about VAMs before you jump in feet first. Ask yourself what are you trying to collect? So in this aspect, refine your goals. Do you want Top 100, Hot 50, Hit list 40, 1878-P 8 tail feather, 7/8 tail feather, b1 reverse? or other? or all of them? There is a lot to choose from.
(3) Since I am addressing this to the collector, those that are accumulators are welcome to read this as well.
You must learn to grade accurately. In addition to this you must know how to tell if the coin you are wanting to buy has been cleaned, polished, whizzed, artificially enhanced (added or removed mint marks), wiped, artificially toned or counterfeit. If this is not your strength, consider purchasing (upper tier) third party graded coins such as PCGS, ANACS, NGC or ICG. All of the others are not considered top tier and some are nothing more than self slabbing companies. Please note, all of them have their own grading standards, so don't assume they are equal because they are not. Ask any dealer (I encourage you to do this) and most will say they prefer PCGS or NGC coins. This will limit you a bit, but will minimize your exposure to purchasing a bad coin.
Let's define a bad coin, It is a coin that will not grade at a major third party grading company for what ever reason. If this is something you don't care about, you or your heirs will when it is time to sell them. What you think and the dealers thinks they are worth will be two very different and divergent things. I know that is a hard thing to say, but there is always a money component that has to be taken into consideration.
(4) If you are doing vams for investment, you will be disappointed at the end. Many agree that vamming has reached market saturation where there is a period of little to no growth. Age demographics and other factors are playing a major role in this.
(5) Start slowly so you can hone your skills and apply them. Don't be afraid to do self assessment.
(6)If you buy raw coins off of the Internet be aware most raw coins sold are estimated to be problem coins. Some of the big names in the hobby say as high as 70% and some are not exempt from selling them as well. A package of horse manure being sold as hamburgr meat no matter the sales pitch will in the end still smell and taste like horse manure. No one likes those deals. Bad coins and bad deals with little recourse for the buyer have contributed to the slow growth of vamming. Some consider this a rite of passage, I do not.

I will write some more later. I am hopeful of some discussion or comment.
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 Posted 09/11/2010  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am hopeful of some discussion or comment.


You know that I am always ready to discuss/debate nearly anything Terry. To be perfectly honest though (and I hope that you don't take it the wrong way, because I do not mean this to be provocative), but the bulk of this thread has thus far been a lecture in the obvious. Statements that can only be agreed with do not lend themselves well to discussion or debate. It is also obvious that you have issues with many aspects of the way things are, but your words are very carefully thought out and presented to avoid conflict with those who may be offended.

I consider this site to be safe haven for my radical thoughts, after all, I do not have to cross the border to the 'dealer sites'. Why is it forbidden to post about selling elsewhere, why do rarity ratings remain deceptive, why is the truth about so many things stifled? The answer to 'all' is the same.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2010  1:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The answer is (my opinion) we are playing with a stacked deck. The game is rigged, unless you enjoy the hobby from a hobbyist point of view, that brings you pleasure in the pursuit.
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 Posted 09/11/2010  2:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We see it the same way Oz. The difference between us is our ability to cope with the situation. While I am so easily frustrated and must escape situations that I cannot deal with, you and the others here know the drill, and possess those virtues that allow you to not only persevere, but to excel in the face of overwhelming odds. Like a first responder knowing the risks and the consequences of making a false move, you are knowledgeable of what can be accomplished and your courage and resilience allow you to remain a formidable player in the game.

Most of the Morgans that I once owned were passed down to me. They numbered well over 1700 in the beginning, but over the past year, I rid myself of nearly all of them as Halloween and Christmas gifts, to kids for the heck of it, as payment as finders fees, etc, but never once sold one of them. I know who the dealers are and who the collectors are on a couple of the other forum sites, but I am still finding this out here. I once had a contest giveaway here in which the prize was of another denomination, and I naively thought that the coin would go to a collector. Recent posts cause me to doubt that was the end result for that coin though, and I have reconsidered having another giveaway.

I recall reading on another site about finds here or there, and it brought me smiles when I knew that it was a collector posting....nausea when it was a dealer flaunting his prowess.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 09/11/2010  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's really cool Zee..
Also I think Oz has laid out some very important things here...because there are many ways to be taken as a collector..Most of the time, I am most guilty of buying because it fancies me at that point and time...I collect at random, and have duplicates of things I really don't need..Knowing can't afford a complete set, I haven't thought about completing anything, and perhaps being more focused on what "GOAL"I should have, would keep me on tract....nice but ungradeable coins can be found everywhere..though I have learned to spot most of them there are still those which needs more experience to catch..
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 Posted 09/11/2010  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah Gene, but I would like to see you collect what tickles your fancy. Goals too are over rated in my opinion. While goals may keep you on the hunt, they can be surprisingly disappointing when the goal is achieved.

I once had 26 1878 vam-9, but this small hoard was assembled before my time. The only things that I actually attempted to collect VAM wise were the 1878-S long nocks, which I lost interest in before completion (mainly because of their lack of character), and the 1889-CC, which wasn't much of a challenge, and about the time I was done, the listings changed, but completion was a let down anyway. Okay, done with that, now what?.......

As far as your inability to afford a complete set, I think that we all know that there is no such thing as a complete set in as much as nobody really knows what a complete set would consist of......is it 3426 coins, or 7057 coins or what?

Collect the coins that you like buddy.....get the ones with the eye catching breaks, those monster clashes....those are the ones that will retain value and interest despite their 'relative rarity'. If you have duplicates, BRAVO.....all the better.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 09/11/2010  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as my goals, making sure I get solid coins over nice looking junk is a must, there is just too much of it out there, and on the other side there are some really good buys as well. I am the habitual "garage saler" that will never change, that is the fun of it all..
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