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 Replies: 8 / Views: 1,882 |
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Valued Member
China
106 Posts |
In later lima mint of portrait pillar I mean 1818-1824,the coins of that time were more crude strucked than before.The typical feaure of this time was the matte like surface both on the portrait and on the shield. I purchase this from florida US,I assume the guy who sold this coin to me is a spanish speaking man.HAHAHA,cause his address was writtern in Spanish. Besides the typical mint feature of later lima mint,this coin also has two more features which can identify it from common. First, the planchet of this coin is well below standard of a actual weight of 26.43g,meanwhile there was also planchet flaws. Second, the patterns of obverse was penetration strucked to the reverse,so did the reverse.You can see from the pic that the portrait the date 1820 and the crown together with some legends was penetration strucked. Have you ever seen a 8R like this,feel free to make comments on it.      |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Nico
Your coin is interesting but I question your comment "The typical feaure of this time was the matte like surface both on the portrait and on the shield." I have several Ferdinand VII Lima portraits while not as sharply struck as same date from Mexico mint, they all are nicely struck coins, as a matter of personal history, I have seen hundreds of Ferd VII Lima portraits and never seen one that had that corroded look to the main features that your coin shows.
Your coins "struck through" features are the result of a die clash, while not common on Spanish Colonials, they occur from time to time. I am unaware of a die clash adding any value to the coin, but then I don't know anyone who specifically collects die clashes. I have several portraits with clashes, they are rotated out of my main collection and moved to the duplicate boxes when I find a same grade/higher grade example for my main set.
I am enjoying your coins, please post more. Do you have a Cuzco Portrait?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The surface of your coin is not in my experience "typical" by any means. I have many of the Ferdin VII coins from Lima struck after 1820 and none has that feature. It is certainly strange. From photos I can not come up with a good (WHY is it there?) answer. The best I can think of is that it results from an incomplete strike which shows the original unstruck surface of the planchet. The problem with that is that the surface appears to be incorrect for a rolled planchet. It certainly makes me suspicious of the authenticity of the coin. It actually looks like the coin was struck on a cast planchet.
The planchet flaw near the King's head at the rim is a commonly seen feature of both real and counterfeit 8Rs in the portrait series of several mints. It is usually observed where an ingot had cooled too much while being rolled at too great a speed and pressure. The combination of cooling and rapid high pressure rolling cracks the surface of the ingot. This is not a desired appearance and only occurs when deteriorating standards combine with pressure to produce more coins resulting in sub-standard output.
The doubling I see is the result of a clash of the dies. That is a feature that was also considered to be indicative of poor quality. Most strong clashes were filed off the dies as soon as they were noticed. There is a growing BUT SMALL community of collectors who attach added value to clashed dies BUT I believe jfransch is representative of the general 8R collector who sees it as detrimental to value.
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Valued Member
 China
106 Posts |
jfransch&swamperbob I like coins with uncommon appearence,also can call them monsters.HAHAAHA.I'd like to express my point of view why I like them.They are examples with planchet or stuck flaws,that mint error provide me the resourses to research the 8r mint features.I also examine many pics from heratige and Goldberg action archives to identify the mint features,so I conclude the matte like 8R only exists in later lima mint.I also have a 1818 NGC AU58 lima pillar has the same features,and this struck flaws do not reduce the conditions of the coin. Of course,my research resources isn't as abundant as yours,so my opinon could be unilaterally. Here I have 1818 lima pillar with the same feature for you,and this one also overweighted which not common.       |
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Valued Member
China
106 Posts |
jfransch By now I haven't got a cuzco portrait.Recently there was one on ebay with VF condition and sold for around $170.My amigo in lima told me the cuzco mint portrait is not quite hard to find,the lima mint 1823JP/1824JP are really rare in high quality. And the 1837-1839 south peru 8r have go in high with market value. Today I want to post another two coins,one is peru independent war countermarked with crown issue,the other is potosi 1825 single assayer J 8R. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I am surprised at the grade given to the last coin by NGC. To me, only having the photos to go by - the surface on the shield side of the coin looks like damage. Perhaps it is just a trick caused by the angles but the central oval looks like the edges are rough - like impact damage. The fist coin has a similar texture but the oval has smooth even edges - the later coin has irregular NOT smooth edges especially in the lower right quadrant.
I am also bothered that NGC covered a rim nick with the edge support (over the P assayer initial) and failed to mention it on the grading label. Missing that feature is shoddy work and to a purist would make an AU58 impossible.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Hey, Beavis - he said "special penetration"... But I digress... Pulling this topic from the depths since this effect has caught my eye before. "The typical feature of this time was the matte like surface both on the portrait and on the shield." Maybe "matte" isn't the exact right word, and it wasn't necessarily "the" typical surface encountered on Lima 8R of these years... but the effect Nicolashsing is referring to does exist. This somewhat "frosted" look with distinctly porous surfaces is not at all uncommon on late 1810s-early 1820s Lima 8R... and I've noticed it particularly on the 1820 issues. See the pic below... two more 1820 8R with the same effect. The one on top (I'm too lazy to get it out to take a better photo) has nice luster in the "smooth" areas and is either high AU or UNC. The other example shows this effect on a more circulated piece. Note that the shield of that 1818 NGC piece he posted has the same thing going on (to a slightly lesser effect)... The cause for this seems to be improper alloying... The Spanish term for this effect is always "plata agria", or "sour silver", which from what I've gleaned online is when antimony or other undesired impurities in the silver alloy affected how the planchets came out.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Just b/c I simply love resurrecting the special penetration thread... Here are an 1820 1R and 2R, clearly both old-toned genuine pieces, that I think sort of confirm the planchet problems they were having particularly in that year at Lima mint. Note the king's hair/wreath:  |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Thanks for resurrecting this topic, I didn't saw it earlier :)
Interesting effect indeed.
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Replies: 8 / Views: 1,882 |
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Posted 08/23/2010 9:35 pm
