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Ethical Or Not?

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Pillar of the Community

United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  09:16 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Often times at coin shows I notice the LWC most dealers have all seem to look nice. Even the ones that show wear. By nice I mean free of dirt and debris, and have a nice consistent brown tone. After purchasing them I take them home, free them of their 2X2 before placing them in my collection. I often wondered how they all seemed to have this look about them. I experimented at home a bit, and was able to achieve the same result using olive oil.

My question is, is that considered the dreaded "C" word, CLEANING? Is that what you are NOT supposed to do? Don't get me wrong, it does bring out the best in a dirty old cent. I am just wanting your opinion. What are your thoughts?

Below is an example of the results:

BEFORE
Ethical-Or-Not??

AFTER
Ethical-Or-Not??
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captainkurt's Avatar
United States
1406 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  09:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add captainkurt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I feel that a treatment of olive oil or acetone are not 'cleaning' agents. They are enhancers. If there are impurities in either then damage can be done to the coins so proceed with caution.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the quick response. Olive oil seems to give an effect close to Thad's product. It most likely does not have the same long term effect. I really like the way they look. How do the show dealers do it?
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wheatguy's Avatar
United States
1534 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wheatguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nothing unethical about it. Are you sure they dip in in olive oil and not something else, such as acetone?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Acetone does not seem to have the same effect. Acetone is great for taking off gunk, but the olive oil seems to give the coin a richer look.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10284 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you use olive oil, better get it completely off the coin with acetone and then rinse with distilled water and make sure the coin is completely dry. The olive oil would most likely have a long term effect on the surface of the coin and the acetone will probably react with the holder and reflect the reaction on the surface of the coin. Any moisture on the coin from the water will cause corrosion.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you use olive oil, better get it completely off the coin with acetone and then rinse with distilled water and make sure the coin is completely dry. The olive oil would most likely have a long term effect on the surface of the coin and the acetone will probably react with the holder and reflect the reaction on the surface of the coin. Any moisture on the coin from the water will cause corrosion.


That is quite a process, which I am perfectly fine doing. Do you think these show dealers go through this lengthy process for the coins they display on their tables? Yes, I do know that naturally beautiful coins do exist, but it just seems like an it would be an over abundance of them if all these coins we see at shows did not need to go through a process like you describe.
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cutepenny's Avatar
United States
127 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cutepenny to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought you werent supposed to clean coins ever....thats just what I have read,but I do like the looks of your nice brown cent.
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fioti's Avatar
United States
4212 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I,m sorry, but I prefer the before. With the embedded grime around date & letters with such a clean piece, it looks just that, cleaned.
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carmykle's Avatar
United States
2448 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my most humble opinion; you have the right mindset. However
conserving a coin is not "a cleaning" but some does occur. I conserve coins (mostly LWC) constantly because of the Verdigris found on most circulated cents. I also put the term "Conserved" on the holder. That's the part that many collectors forget and exposes them to being labeled un-ethical. If you want your collection to last and not have a green moldy look to them, you should treat the coin to stop the spread of the problem.

If the coin is one of great value, I wouldn't touch the coin but I would send it to NCS for grading and encapsulation. If the coin is conserved by NCS, NGS will encapsulate the coin with details concerning the damage or conservation.

As far as most TPGs are concerned, they can tell the difference and
It's a slippery slope either way you go, just don't pull out the "Brasso" and a brush to make it more shiny. Once you give a coin a harsh cleaning, it's worth is reduced to its melt value. A well conserved coin will always retain some value, especially to its owner.
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United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very intresting points. I agree.
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neversuited1's Avatar
United States
1121 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  1:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add neversuited1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
seal006,
Yes, most coindealers do enhance the look of their coins for sale. But most use the "safer" ways described. There are many many tricks to enhancing the look of a coin, depending upon the type of metal. Copper and Nickel are difficult to alter without effecting the patina or luster of the coin. Too much luster with some wear, in silver coins can be an indicator...pinkish tone in copper...ect.

carmkle..I would have to disagree with one point you made re: TPG's telling the difference. I have seen NGC and PCGS grade many silver coins that have been dipped come back with MS certifications. It happens.

just steer away from that 1899 Morgan that looks like a belt buckle, smooth surface, passing off as MS.

unethical?...to me if the surface (not dirt, muck, ect.) is altered, yes.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1915 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am really appreciating all of the input on this thread. I just want to better educate myself. Hopefully others on the forum are benefiting as well
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wheatguy's Avatar
United States
1534 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  2:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wheatguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have seen NGC and PCGS grade many silver coins that have been dipped come back with MS certifications. It happens.


Also, many dealers and collectors alike dip silver MS coins with E-Zest or another solvent designed for cleaning silver coins. The coins if dipped right will retain the luster and original look, so there are many coins on the market that have been dipped, and TPG's generally consider those coins market acceptable, and they slab them without a Details grade. Some think dipping a coin is a substance other than acetone is unethical, some do not.
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Tim Stroud's Avatar
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I use both olive oil and acetone soaking methods on any coins that are very dirty and/or have a lot of gunk on them. If the dealers are doing the same as me then that just saves me trouble and lots of time. I would however look closer at them next time I am at a show to see if they show evidence of "cleaning".
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BadThad's Avatar
United States
19942 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a whole section devoted to olive oil in my book. I do not recommend it for coins at all, especially as a long-term surface treatment. It contains a LOT of different acids which will act to damage the surface with time.

From my experience, most dealers that have nice coins is because they selected them like that. They cull the junk and keep/sell the best. Some may use mineral oil products like Coin Care, but it's not that prevalent. It happens, but most dealers realize their customers will spot it.

I can spot an oiled coin in hand pretty quick. Also, the surface will feel slick and the surface debris has a "moistened" look.
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