"Certified" Counterfeit 1836 Pi 8 Reale

NNC it's a small TPG with no good reputation probably a basement TPG,as Americans call these small firms.

This is one thing that is sad in our hobby. Even fake ones are being certified as genuines that most TPG companies are not capable of doing...


Imagine, same six identical coins of Bob do not even have any trace of silver...
Our problem in terms of counterfeits now have evolved... to include slabbed counterfeits.
The thing is...how can this be avoided or ...
Is the solution too remote in our situation nowadays?

Funny. If you look at the bidders for this coin, many of them frequently bid on coins from centsles.

See, this is exactly the type of thing that I'm afraid of falling for. I would of had no idea that the coin in the listing was counterfeit. I've been slowly building up my collection of cap & rays but besides detecting the ugly 1882 Zs that abound on ebay, I am not too good yet at weeding out the counterfeits with just a picture to look at.

Once the coin is weighed and the edge checked then I can tell the difference on most coins but by that time I would have already shelled out the dough for the coin.

RealPeso You didn't say how long you have been collecting Cap and Ray coins? Just remember Rome was not built in a day.

But I suspect you are new - your frustration is common among beginners or even experienced collectors who are unfamiliar with this series. The Cap and Ray varieties of the First Republic are very complex and trying to remember every one will drive you crazy - AT FIRST. Eventually they will become like old friends - the names can fade but you KNOW the faces.

But here are a couple hints.

1. Never accept a coin as an original until you have reason to do so. I rarely look at the date/mint/assayer combination first. Rarity of the coin is not critical until you know it is real. Look at the whole picture first - in the case under discussion here - the coin is the wrong color. That is a big hint. It draws my attention. It could be the way the picture was taken BUT don't accept that the color can't be a clue. In this case the coin is a high copper German Silver and often has a coppery tint.

2. When you look at the date/mint combination (I still don't at this point care about the assayer and rarity), always check the Eagle first. Concentrate on the general appearance of the eagle and get to know the different birds as if they were pets. You are getting somewhere when you can identify the mint and date range by the EAGLE ALONE. I still try to do that at shows by picking up a stack of 8Rs flipping them over and testing myself to see how many date/mints I can get right. Treat that as a game and you will not only have fun but you will learn as well.

3. The Eagle is the most difficult feature for a forger to copy - unless he is using some form of transfer impression. Engraving is a skill that fortunately few forgers actually possessed. Get to know how the feathers are supposed to be cut. What shape the wings should be and especially the tail. The feet get harder because at some mints they were finishing details cut individually into each die so they vary die to die. But the outline shape of 90% of the eagles was established by the King Punch - it didn't vary much. In this case, the forger did a pretty good job on the eagle but the shape of the outline is still incorrect.

4. The next best feature to check are the Cactus pads. Even though those do often vary die to die (unless there is a hub involved) there is a general pattern adopted by the mints. Many early forgers were not careful with where they put the pads and some odd cactus plants resulted.

5. The next step is the OUTLINE shape of the Cap and especially the curve of the opening. In this case, THAT IS ALL WRONG. The bottom of the cap is unlike the opening on ANY real 8R ever made. A dead give away it is fake.

6. The last feature I love to check are the rays. Here are some test questions. How many rays surround the cap? Does it ever vary? Do they all radiate from a single central point? Are they always symmetrical? Is there always a tall ray pointing to the 12 o'clock position? Are the same ray shapes used more than once? Are the ray tips always cut along the same angle? Do they alternate?

7. In hand of course I always check the EDGE FIRST to see if it was edged correctly. The pattern used varies mint to mint but that is an advanced technique for which you need more experience.

Finally remember that I got my first Cap and Ray 8R when I was UNDER 10 years old. It was my FAVORITE coin and that was a long time ago. I have been doing this over 50 years and for the past 15 years it has been an obsession. I do almost nothing else. So if you spend 60-80 hours a week for the next 15 years looking at Cap and Ray coins - I am willing to bet that you will also be able to spot the 1836 Pi as a fake in a split second.

Thank you Swamperbob for that detailed answer, I have been collecting Mexican 8R's for a couple years at the most now. Initially I bought a lot of 1880's and 1890's issues because they were cheaper but then I realized that they didn't have the same appeal as the earlier dates or variablity so I sold many and I started fresh, trying to acquire 1820's 30's, and 40's, which is great but until I get real good at spotting the fakes I know I am running the risk of getting taken.

I already start out by checking the date/mint/assayer combination first and I am trying to learn the different eagle styles, I am already starting to learn a few of the more distinctive ones like the Zacatecas 1840's pattern, and the San Luis Potosi 1830's style, Also the Durango "french" die one is really nice looking, I have yet to acquire one of those.

All in all I am having a blast collecting this type of coins, they are beautiful and have a tremendous amount of history, not only in North America but all over the world which surprises me as to why most people never even heard of them. When I go to coin shows and ask dealers if they might have any, most don't even know what I'm talking about, which worries me about the resale value of my pieces but oh well I'm not going to worry about that now!

Guadalupe Victoria The question of age of this particular coin is a real concern. Simply put at this point in time I DO NOT KNOW. When I first encountered the variety I ran into a pair of nearly MS coins. They looked VERY modern and I catalogued them that way. The coin does not appear in Riddell and there are no known close counterparts in that book. After some years, I located a drill cancellation on a well worn copy. That coin had worn to AG and appeared to be a "lucky piece" drilled for hanging on a chain. Clearly that coin had been used for many years. However, based on the manufacturing style and the way the die was cut, I can't help but think that it is "Early Modern" made sometime in the 20th Century but I lack conclusive proof of a date. I do not consider it a "worthless" modern fake like the Chinese copies because it has been around since the 1960s at least - but it is clearly not in the Riddell category either.

pls On the subject of a book - that has been my long term goal for years. The advent of electronic books seems tailor made for this application.

RealPeso Re-sale is not my primary interest either but prices are UP especially on the First Republic issues. Those coins are far scarcer than the 1880's standardized coins and as you have noticed they are FAR MORE INTERESTING. The way dies were made before hubs guarantees a lot of interesting varieties. If you have concerns about spectific coins send along a picture and I may be able to help you avoid forgeries. But always am interested in interesting counterfeits os if you do buy one let me know and I may want to take it off your hands.