1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

Regarding the "efforts of ingenuity" thing, you may very will be right Dave. Personally, I don't know what he was talking about, as these two guys had so many alligators that they were battling in those days, it may have referred to the B1/A thing, the 8TF/7TF thing, or something totally different. I just ball it all up together as a 'it is fixed now, and we are back on track' sorta thing.

Heating and cooling is the process involved in annealing. It must be done between blows.




That is the second time I have seen you refer to lapping the periphery. I know that I have mentioned this countless times previously, but this seems like a good time to say it again....

I am not a coin person....what very little I know about coins, I have learned on this and a couple other forums. I have not read the books, nor have I searched the internet for answers. I have sought out the diagrams and specific information regarding specialized coining equipment from those that have access to such information, but my coin education has come from people like you and the others here, many folks at VW and CU. Primarily though, I take what I have learned in other aspects of my life and apply that to possibilities and probabilities regarding coins. I remember pictures and what little I have read. So what I say is my own....as is what I believe and what I think, and should not be taken by anyone as either reality, history or fact. I base my beliefs by putting myself in a particular hypothetical situation and asking myself "What would 'I' do given these circumstances?"

Now, the lapping of the periphery......I am not sure what gives you the impression that this was done, (unless this was just to take the die back to hub curvature from being previously basined, if it even was in the first place), but it would be the last thing that I would do (just before I discarded the die). I'm really not so sure that this lapping 'or' basining actually happened anyway.

Immediately following annealing, the highest degree of ductility will be concentrated near the periphery (for one thing) as the metal will heat from the outside-in rather than the other way around. Cooling will take place in the same direction.

When a ductile solid (playdough or annealed steel) is compressed , the physical tendency of this ductile solid is to displace to the area of least resistance. In the case of a hub and die impact, the annealed die metal will displace outward toward the edges rather than inward to the center. (Displacement is its preferred method rather than compression). The periphery of the die must mirror (in topographical relief) the hub, in order to maintain properly consistent relief transfer over the entire surface of the hub (from the hub to the die). Lapping of the periphery will cause weak peripheral transfer of stars and letters.

The peripheral areas of the die will fill through metal displacement of the old stars and letters through metal movement caused by the new. In the case of the 7/8TF modification, my guess is that a second hubbing was not opted for due to time constraints, and the tail feather voids did not completely fill.

Regarding the 'bottoming out' thing, I think that this would not occur until maximum compression of the die metal occurred, which would be dependent on press capabilities. The hub field will compress the die field to a certain extent depending on pressure exertion, but as mentioned earlier, the die metal will displace before it compresses.

The deeper into this area I dig for thoughts, the further from my own comfort zone I get as I am bordering on pure speculation now.

I fear that we fail to comprehend what the other is saying Dave. 'Displacement' would not be dependent on a letter being at 7:00 on the die and 8:00 on the hub.... 7:00 is filled due to the metal displaced at 8:00.

By removing the peripheral devices on the die, the hub would not be able to touch the periphery of the die, and coins struck would be so concave that the rims would appear to be 1/4" wide void of stars and letters.

Removal of the peripheral devices would ruin the die..... If hubbing was continued to attempt to fix that, It would continue far past the normal 7-10 blows, and more like 30 blows would be necessary.....It would be a real time saver to start afresh with a new block of steel.

I really do not think that the metal should be considered anywhere near liquefied....not even molten....it was ductile in the sense that the pressure strike of the screw press would move that metal...not so much as playdough of course, but ductile to the point that all metal on the surface of the die would move to available voids in the die as the hub devices push metal sideways and the hub field prevents upward escape, the die resists compression inward on itself in favor of that sideways displacement. Call it flow if you prefer, it is the same effect that occurs in a planchet as it is trapped between two dies, the planchet metal has nowhere to escape to other than to the voids. Dan Carr does this by overstriking old silver dollars, but uses high pressure in his press rather than annealing to move that silver, so some traces of the original design may be residual. (I have not seen one of this works, so I really can't say for sure about that, but this would be my guess).

I guess that my answer would be pressure....displacement by pressure. If air were to be trapped in the old device as it was blocked from escape by the hub die, I could see how that may leave a small chip like appearance on the die surface, but would probably be basined out. I am just guessing at a lot of this stuff Dave, the only thing that I am certain about is that the engravers were not as polishing happy as some folks may think.

Gotta head for work; I'll see what I feel appropriate under "Fair Use" tonight and post scans. A lot of the information you've quoted about Mint correspondence is reflected there, as well.

My thumbs up is for you Dave.....not for some site that I have never been to or will ever visit.

Okay, guys. I'm deeply impressed with the details about Morgans which have popped up in this thread, as well as the expertise here. Allow me to toss something in here, if you will, and if I'm like the annoying little kid who chimes during the middle of an adult discussion, just smack me and send me on my way.

Years ago my grandmother presented me with a Whitman album that contained, I believe 27 silver dollars, both Morgan and Peace. For whatever reason (maybe I thought I was going to be a VAM expert), I photographed each coin, front and back, and somewhere I still have the negatives (35 mm Tri-X, I believe) stored away. I believe I used a reversed-normal-lens technique to provide me with sharp enough closeups to provide decent details. Or at least I hope I did; I don't remember ever printing any photos, though.

The album was stolen in Los Angeles around 1984, probably by a friend or relative of a roommate. Is there any chance that if I found the negs, converted them to positives, scanned them, and posted some or all of them, that someone here might be able to match coins to the photos? As I remember, some of the Morgans were somewhat worn, and all were taken out of circulation in northern Wyoming, probably through about 1960, so there should be some unique marks on them.

The statue of limitations has long passed the point where I could take any retribution against someone, but if the album was still intact, I'd certainly pay the current value for it and the coins, which of course have a lot of sentimental value, especially since I've returned to active collecting.

What do you think?