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Moderator
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23522 Posts |
 OK, here we go. Until I'm done posting this document, everything in my words will be in red, and everything of Ozland's will be in black. My next post will be the written part of Ozland's document in its' entirety, followed by subsequent posts with the images he presents, in the same order in which he presented them. I am unhappy with how the photos upscaled; they look better scaled up in Adobe Acrobat. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Ozland's commentary:1887-O V22A The subject two coins are both V22 or V22A. They are have doubled eye lid, doubled left stars, doubled bottom of lower cotton leaf, and pitting of two different levels on the reverse. For the sake of discussion, they are both the same die marriage, no doubt. They are both also clashed with the wing clash below Liberty's chin, neck clash above eagle's right wing up towards the "G", and the capvee clash by the right wreath. The wing clash below Liberty's neck matches the location of the clash shown in the V22B VAM Plate. However, neither of these coins shows a clashed "G" or "t", likely gone from die wear. A quick cursory review would lead one to believe that the coin with the lesser pitting is the EDS of the coin with the most pitting. However, there are things on the obverse which might lead to a conclusion that the EDS coin is actually the LDS. However, what I can't explain is that if this was the case, then the coin with the lesser pitting should show signs of polishing. With the extent of the pitting on the bow and left leaf cluster of the left wreath, the polishing to remove this pitting would have been very aggressive, and would show on the coin with the lesser pitting if it was polished. Since the telltale signs of die stage are very close between the two coins, I can only come to the conclusion that the coin labeled as EDS by PCGS is actually the EDS. So then the question becomes, how did the pitting get to the advanced stage from the EDS to the LDS? What I can't explain is a die progression that makes sense. JR says he has seen a plain jane V22. So let's take that at face value. How can you have a V22A with full pitting on the reverse, and a V22B with full pitting on the reverse with the EDS coin in the mix? If the V22B preceded the V22A, meaning all V22As were clashed but lack the letter transfer from die wear, then how does the EDS coin fit into this? Only explanation I can come up with is that the dies clashed without letter transfer before the pitting progressed from the EDS coin to the LDS coin. At some later stage the dies clashed again, with the exact same rotation and position, with letter transfer to create the V22B. V22, no clash no pitting V22A EDS, clash, no letter transfer, minor pitting V22A LDS, clash, no letter transfer, full pitting V22B, double clash with letter transfer, full pitting. Only problem with this scenario is that I can't pick up any sign of double clash on the V22B VAM Plate. By the way, as a side note, the LDS shows signs of ejection doubling on the reverse. Makes me think that the pitting in the reverse die was causing the coin to "stick" to the reverse die. Photos follow:
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I have taken the liberty of splitting some of these into pieces as opposed to the original organization, in order to highlight certain features.         
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
That is the document.
Even with the assumption that they can polish with sufficient skill to leave no polishing lines, I can't any longer believe the die progression as I theorized it earlier. The detail pic of the bow is particularly telling.
Thoughts?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
V22, no clash no pitting
V22A EDS, clash, no letter transfer, minor pitting
V22A LDS, clash, no letter transfer, full pitting
V22B, double clash with letter transfer, full pitting. This is obviously correct.....It cannot be otherwise....What is causing doubt in the mind of the author is the nonsense about clashes and lack of polishing.....All of those pictures were unnecessary.....The photos showing pitting in the devices are all telling.....Pitting in the fields, clashing, and aggressive polishing lines can all be obliterated through polishing....Pitting in the device itself is irreversible, and both LDS and EDS display pitting in the olive branch stem.....It further stands to reason that 22B with two clashes would follow anything with only one clash.....Neither wear or polishing will not be selective as to which clash to obliterate....both would go away if both were present. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I'm having trouble with the "double clashing" issue. Many, many Morgans are known with clearly-defined multiple clashes. I find it counterintuitive for a second clash to be so exact that no sign at all - not even the strength of the clash - would appear.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Okay, now I am confused.....The verbiage refers to four die states.
22 No clash......(which we are not shown).
22A EDS With one clash.......(which we are shown).
22A LDS With one clash.......(which we are shown).
22B with two clashes..........(which we are not shown).
Maybe the second clash actually is visible on the coin that we are not shown?
Possibly though, the verbiage supplied does not exactly correlate to the visual aspects of this alleged 22B? Maybe it just looks like two clashes one exactly atop of another? I too, do not understand how something that might be that exact in both "position and rotation" could be determined to be two instead of just one clash.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Well, Ozland describes V22B (letter transfer) as having full pitting and theorizes that it's likely a second clash in the exact same position as the first (see his monologue above). The implication is, all the clashing features which can be seen on all varieties are similar. Only the presence of letter transfer differentiates V22B.
But, with the pics above, I can easily buy the current designation of EDS and LDS regarding these coins. What alternate explanation could be offered to explain the letter transfer?
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I have never seen a letter transfer in hand before, and the only letter transfer that I have ever seen in an online photo is that of the E clash between tailfeathers and wreath....all of the other letters have been invisible to me although folks swear that they are there....I have seen wreath and wing clashes as they seem to be more pronounced than do letter clashes....Is it not possible that the very light letter simply wore away and left the heavier wing clash? Quote:
Only explanation I can come up with is that the dies clashed without letter transfer before the
pitting progressed from the EDS coin to the LDS coin. At some later stage the dies clashed again,
with the exact same rotation and position, with letter transfer to create the V22B. I personally like that explanation. Quote:
Only problem with this scenario is that I can't pick up any sign of double clash on the V22BVAM Plate. I still do not understand the notion of why there should be such a sign.... Quote:
V22, no clash no pitting
V22A EDS, clash, no letter transfer, minor pitting
V22A LDS, clash, no letter transfer, full pitting
V22B, double clash with letter transfer, full pitting. Maybe I still don't understand just what the problem really is, unless it boils down to the legitimacy of one of these stages....Remove one of them from the chronological list....it really shouldn't change anything. If someone is really serious about the die state thing with this VAM, I would think that the logical first steps to take would be to determine whether the degree of pitting between EDS and LDS was an abrupt event, or if it can be determined to be a gradual migration... (Did the dinosaurs perish all at once from a meteor or did they die off gradually through climate changes? If pitting was a gradual thing, (which I doubt), then there is no such thing as EDS and LDS other than the perception of the increasing degree of pitting as it somehow progresses through repetitive striking....eliminate one of them. If the letter transfer is the hang up, compare the 22B to the 22A LDS....the wing clash on the 22B should be more pronounced than that on the 22A LDS, if not, eliminate one of them. |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
I still do not understand the notion of why there should be such a sign... Obviously, if there were no sign, we wouldn't know.  It's the fact that there are so many Morgans with double clashes which are "almost but not quite perfect." Maybe there's a mindset like, "this is how a double clash occurs," and the thought of a "prefect" double clash is unimaginable. I feel that way, although I'm always willing to question my thinking. Assuming a "prefect" second clash: would the features of the first clash be made stronger? A clash hard enough for letter transfer is a hard clash, so the second clash should..... Wait. How can there be "hard" clashes and "soft" clashes? The travel of the press is mechanically limited; the dies are unable to touch. Do we posit that each clash is the result of a part breakage on the press? |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
Obviously, if there were no sign, we wouldn't know. But I thought that it was already established in the monologue that there is no sign. Quote:
Only problem with this scenario is that I can't pick up any sign of double clash on the V22BVAM Plate. Quote:
the thought of a "prefect" double clash is unimaginable My logic tells me the exact opposite....I believe that the visibly doubled clashes are the scarcities. Quote:
Do we posit that each clash is the result of a part breakage on the press? I imagine that many folks do, however, there are two heavy duty springs inside the very top of the press housing that surround the rods that the triangle rides on...tension adjustment of these springs is made possible by a series of nuts and lock nuts on the outer casing....the springs allow flex or stretch to reduce shock and stress to the entire movable triangle assembly at strike..... (operates rather like shock absorbers on a car)...imagine the stress to your vehicle without shock absorbers...they are there to ease shock and stress to your vehicle, although your butt benefits as well. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3076 Posts |
While I am not an old timer to vams, I must make not of the issue at hand that has been over looked..........
and while the clashing which could be either worn away by die usage
of it was simply "POLISHED AWAY"
THE RUST SHOWN IN THE PICTURES WAS NOT!!
if: Persay the rust was present in the early stages and the some where near that time the clash occured.......IF it was polished out....
"WHY IS THE RUST present?
the photo's clearly show the advancement of the rust......
however as indicated there was another clash weather perfect or not, and the die work that has been accepted in theory....forgets the issue of the PROGRESSION OF RUST......in which case I ask you....HOW can rust progress while the dies been worked on and the clashes polished out? answer me that......
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Good point Aladin.....the answer is that there was no polishing applied to these dies.
Refer to the photos of the tailfeathers.....there is absolutely now way to polish the tailfeathers.....they are a pretty deep depression (engraving transfer) in the die.
If there ever was a v-22 with no pitting, no clashing, it was certainly the first stage, as v-22A EDS shows minor pitting in the olive branch device....v-22A LDS shows heavy pitting in the tailfeathers which was not in the EDS, (and could not be removed by any means).....so the progression is absolutely correct up to this point...no rational doubt about it.
So, the only thing left is v-22B.....where can that fit in?
It has pitting in the tailfeathers (supposedly)....therefore, it cannot possibly fit in before v-22 or v-22A EDS (as neither has pitting in the tailfeathers).
The only places left are either before or after v-22A LDS.....The letter transfer is the only feature that allegedly separates the 22A LDS and the 22B.
Not having seen the 22B, we can only speculate whether (or not) the the letter transfer was actually on the 22A LDS, and just wore away with repetitive striking, (which in essence would make it after the 22B), or did the letter transfer occur after the heavy pitting on the 22A LDS.
I say compare (with great scrutiny) the the pitting on the 22A LDS and the 22B......summarize from the differences if any.....If the 22B shows a progression of pitting from the 22A LDS, then the progression is in reality 22, 22A EDS, 22A LDS, 22B.
If no progression of pitting is detected from 22A LDS to 22B, then the letter transfer has simply worn away from the 22A LDS, causing it to be after the 22B.
But... there was no polishing involved with this die, otherwise, there would be pitting in the devices, but the fields would appear clean.
Edited (to make sense).
Edited by zeewool
12/19/2010 11:45 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
The comparative was written by Alan Scott as a favor for me. The pictures were taken by Alan also. What is not shown in the comparative is a 1887-O VAM 22 A PCGS MS 62 was also compared. That coin belonged to Larry Eakins. It was an exact match to the 1887-O VAM 22 A MS 61. As such it was not necessary to the narrative. Finally, a 1887-O VAM 22B PCGS MS 62 example was also compared. This coin belongs to Bud Sprink. This coin confirmed the sequencing. The plate photo of VAM 22 A on the other site is actually the plate photo of VAM 22B. Much more to discuss tomorrow. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
thanks Terry, my point is that this thread overlooked the point of the thread.......lost in the clashing and polishing......
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Replies: 95 / Views: 9,000 |
First Page
Posted 12/18/2010 2:16 pm
