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Numismatic Forensic's

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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 12/12/2010  3:10 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
that's a mouthful all in itself!
is it for good? or is it over the top? In some ways it could be however there is a reason for the study of coins "As a series" or a progression.....A very interesting topic from the past has always interested me and its a study of the progression of rust on a die...

1887-O V22A
The subject two coins are both V22 or V22A. They are have doubled eye lid, doubled left stars,
doubled bottom of lower cotton leaf, and pitting of two different levels on the reverse. For the
sake of discussion, they are both the same die marriage, no doubt. They are both also clashed
with the wing clash below Liberty's chin, neck clash above eagle's right wing up towards the
"G", and the capvee clash by the right wreath. The wing clash below Liberty's neck matches the
location of the clash shown in the V22B VAM Plate. However, neither of these coins shows a
clashed "G" or "t", likely gone from die wear.
A quick cursory review would lead one to believe that the coin with the lesser pitting is the EDS of the coin with the most pitting.
However, there are things on the obverse which might lead to a conclusion that the EDS coin is
actually the LDS. However, what I can't explain is that if this was the case, then the coin with
the lesser pitting should show signs of polishing. With the extent of the pitting on the bow and
left leaf cluster of the left wreath, the polishing to remove this pitting would have been very
aggressive, and would show on the coin with the lesser pitting if it was polished.
Since the telltale signs of die stage are very close between the two coins, I can only come to the conclusion that the coin labeled as EDS by PCGS is actually the EDS.
So then the question becomes, how did the pitting get to the advanced stage from the EDS to the
LDS?
What I can't explain is a die progression that makes sense. JR says he has seen a plain jane V22.
So let's take that at face value. How can you have a V22A with full pitting on the reverse, and a
V22B with full pitting on the reverse with the EDS coin in the mix? If the V22B preceded the
V22A, meaning all V22As were clashed but lack the letter transfer from die wear, then how does the EDS coin fit into this?
Only explanation I can come up with is that the dies clashed without letter transfer before the
pitting progressed from the EDS coin to the LDS coin. At some later stage the dies clashed again,
with the exact same rotation and position, with letter transfer to create the V22B.
V22, no clash no pitting
V22A EDS, clash, no letter transfer, minor pitting
V22A LDS, clash, no letter transfer, full pitting
V22B, double clash with letter transfer, full pitting.
Only problem with this scenario is that I can't pick up any sign of double clash on the V22BVAM Plate.
By the way, as a side note, the LDS shows signs of ejection doubling on the reverse. Makes me
think that the pitting in the reverse die was causing the coin to "stick" to the reverse die.

Pictures will follow....
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/12/2010  3:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
However, what I can't explain is that if this was the case, then the coin with
the lesser pitting should show signs of polishing. With the extent of the pitting on the bow and
left leaf cluster of the left wreath, the polishing to remove this pitting would have been very
aggressive, and would show on the coin with the lesser pitting if it was polished.


Nope...not at all true....polishing is not necessarily a one step process....if done by a craftsman who was passionate about his final product, lesser grades of grit would be successively employed to achieve a surface free of polishing lines.

Were these dies used on a specific day only? Were they shelved for whatever reason, for whatever time period, and then reused?

The speculation of die state progression is obvious on some coins, but is sheer folly on others....Since it is obvious to me that no one can possibly determine these things with any consistent degree of accuracy, I don't even bother thinking about it.....yeah, it is over the top, and way, way over the heads of those who think that they have got it all figured out.
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 Posted 12/17/2010  12:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What? No distention to my provocative views? Come on now, are you taking my word for it, or do you not feel that it is worth thinking about or discussing? Sure, there is no profit or money to be gained here, but the very premise of accepted die state progression is at stake here, (as I have just rebuked the notion of it holding water).
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a quick theory:

Although the press design of the era was highly sophisticated (essentially unimproved since), the metallurgy of the time was less so. Highly-stressed working parts could fail due to improper alloy composition or annealing (the dies were not the only metal which required treatment to achieve proper strength).

V22 Plain Jane was struck. The press broke, and in typical laissez-faire New Orleans fashion, the dies sat in the press during the repair process. The anvil reverse pits during this time, being unprotected from the New Orleans climate.

Shortly before, or shortly after the press fix, the dies clash. V22B w/letter transfer is the next die stage, followed by V22A full pitting. V22A minor pitting is the LDS, after skilled polishing. They'd pay the obverse no attention, nor the reverse clashing; the goal was to remove the pitting to ease ejection.

A V22 with clash/letter transfer and no pitting, or a V22 with full pitting but no clash, is implied. Just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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 Posted 12/17/2010  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that is a very plausible possibility that I never would have thought of.... I could very easily see that exact thing happening....Thanks very much for that....I really like it.

This is the sort of thing that gives me tingles (rather than "the hunt" that everyone else finds so titillating)...
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd like to see a photographic study of these coins, in what I'd consider high resolution.
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 Posted 12/17/2010  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
According to the OP, you may get your wish.


Quote:
Pictures will follow....


The thing that I like about it all is that possibilities really do exist beyond looking at a series of coins, and relating that to what has been given as undisputed proof of die state progression....I do not know that to be the case here....(but it kinda sounded like it).....I do very much enjoy a good dispute.
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 Posted 12/17/2010  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ocsjr2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oz was telling me about his new thoughts on this progressive rusting that I found interesting, but I don't want to steal his thunder. I'm sure he will post on this by late weekend. So stay tuned because the Oz does his homework!
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
for those of you who are still interested, The pictures are in a PDF format that I can not copy and post here but, if you are interested I will take the liberty,,,,email me and I will email you the pictures which are a side by side comparison of "progressive rusting" or as such, a comparison of if rust is progressive and unchecked, meaning no polishing ect, why something is out of place, and if there was polishing......why some features are missing and yet the rust still remains? This is what forensics is all about, the understanding of the coins production progression and what happened to it and why...It is know on certain coins such as the 1883-0 VAM 36A whereby the "E" clash was polished out yet other features were still present...as well as other coins which production alone caused the clashing to disappear to a point of uncertainty for VAM attribution...let me know so we can continue this specific discussion
about the forensics required to understand what happened...and the order it happened...
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
by the way Dave, thanks that was a great just what I need to keepp things rolling here...!!
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have copies of the files in question; they're already translated into .doc. and I'm still trying to figure out how to inline them. It's a 13Mb .doc file. The thinking involved is important and relevant to the discussions we have here.

Frustrating.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 12/17/2010  11:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
great you have it xfered to DOC.. are the photo's now postable?
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
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5627 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2010  05:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ZEE STATES " The speculation of die state progression is obvious on some coins, but is sheer folly on others....Since it is obvious to me that no one can possibly determine these things with any consistent degree of accuracy, I don't even bother thinking about it.....yeah, it is over the top, and way, way over the heads of those who think that they have got it all figured out.'

Zee, I feel a strong passion to research this exact topic, die state progression. It certainly has led me to see some were obviously concerned about doing things 'by the book' pulling the die, polishing it, re-basining the die, and repolishing with many differing degrees of grit to bring the die back to as close to the original condition, if possible. This CAN be done, not a very exacting science but I am pulled in to searching for some answers and with the works of others I have come to enjoy this "slice' of the hobby also......Columbo I am not and figured out, not yet and do not even suggest I have come close.

Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/18/2010  07:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What I meant by that Mike, was that although it is natural that people desire closure and need something solid to believe in (which is why so much rhetoric is accepted at face value without further question), I cross nothing off of the list of possibilities until such time as I, (myself) am satisfied that the best answer has been arrived at....I in no way was pointing the finger at anyone in particular (especially not you Mike), but was just making a very broad and generic statement about those who are perceived as having given these "studies" much consideration and research.

I do not qualify looking at a bunch of coins and speculating on the cause and effect as "research" despite the length of time spent staring at those coins....rather, a certain degree of understanding of history, processes, procedures, mechanical operations, and just what is possible and what is not, etc, etc, are precursors to the ability to determine die state progression.....many of the folks that claim the ability to determine die states have displayed little to no understanding of anything at all beyond basic VAM identification and price guide value.

Instead of being told that vam-3c came before vam-3a, but after 3d, I demand to know the rationale for such a conclusion, and I will judge the merit of the assertion for myself.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/18/2010  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Heh. For all the stuff I've done to Ozland's document, I never actually *read* it until now. I've posted an opinion here which disagrees with his conclusion; after digesting the document, I now question my own thoughts.

I have Ozland's request to get this document posted here. It's a 13Mb .doc, so I'll have to split it by page to post here. Over the next few minutes, I'll do this, and we can talk about the evidence presented.
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 Posted 12/18/2010  12:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, that is my preferred avenue of attack as well....we can see what he said, then trash, balk, and jeer at his ideas, and then be outta here before he gets back to defend himself....good plan, I like it.
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