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Philippine Y II Counterstrike On Lima Dos Mundos 8 Reales

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New Member

United States
2 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2010  9:40 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add stonyhill to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Is this Lima Peru pillar possibly an authentic coin, with or without the countermark?


Philippine-Y-II-Counterstrike-On-Lima-Dos-Mundos-8-Reales

Philippine-Y-II-Counterstrike-On-Lima-Dos-Mundos-8-Reales
Edited by stonyhill
12/24/2010 11:34 pm
Pillar of the Community
jfransch's Avatar
United States
1801 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2010  12:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am sorry to say I believe your coin is fake. The assayer letter "J" is the wrong style and the overall look of the coin is off. What is the weight and could you please post pictures of the edge because that is a must in determining real or fake.
New Member
United States
2 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2010  12:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stonyhill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why would they fake a dos mundos pillar and then use the Y.II countermark? The coin also shows what looks like honest wear. Thanks much for your reply, have a good Christmas. I will try to find a good scale, I am not a coin specialist, just a long-time collector. The honest answer is that I bid on this coin on ebay but was overbid. Other red flags -- seller from China. The coin just looked honest to me, but that is what makes a good fake. Thanks for the help, I am trying to learn.
Edited by stonyhill
12/25/2010 01:13 am
Valued Member
Pandesalapi's Avatar
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2010  01:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The YII counterstamp is obviuosly fake - the base of the crown is too wide and the pearl formation (5-4-1) to include its dividers are not normal. Most counterfeiters goes for a YII counterstamp on Dos Mundos because of its high premium cost that most collectors usually tend to have overlooked. An original piece of a YII CS on an 1767 Lima Pillar dollar would easily fetch US$15,000. I have not heard of any 1769 date for a CS as shown above.
You may also notice on its obverse part of the above specimen that counterstamp should have marked convex type on the area of the 3 fleur-de-lis as the usual effect at the back side of the golpe-de-martillo tooling.
I also agree with jfransch with regards to its host coin...
to the community stonyhill
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/25/2010  09:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saw that posting on ebay last night. A very crude YII punch pattern. In the late 1950s similar YII counterfeit punches were very common until an article was published in the "Numismatist" that pointed out that the arcs on the crown were always curved and closed at the top. The particular forgery that was the subject of the article used straight lines instead of arcs. After that most forgers corrected their punches.

So either the forgery is old or a new forger has made the same error.

I go for the latter, because the HOST coin is a forgery as well. The J as pointed out above is WRONG for LIMA period. The earlier forgeries of the YII stamp were usually applied to real 8Rs.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2010  12:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just noticed the completed auction for the coin. There were TWO bids. The winner got the coin for the simply AMAZING PRICE of only $77.00.

WHAT A DEAL.

I also checked the auction history and found that the bidder identities were being "Protected" by the seller. What a surprise - just in case anyone knew the bidders by their feedback number - the seller took the extra step to Protect them from ......... - I have no idea what.

Wait, maybe the seller didn't want anyone to tell the bidders that they were just taken.

And isn't that the SAME reason ebay dropped the use of bidder identities in the first place? To keep guys like me from contacting buyers when the purchased fakes!

Talk about over-kill and GREED. But neither I nor anyone else is likely ever to correct the impulse that drives the forgers and ebay.
Both groups are crooks.

But to be VERY SERIOUS for a second - I hope no one here bid $77 for such foolishness. I might bid $35 to get an example of a coin like this one to document the die BUT I NEVER EXPECT TO SELL THESE MODERN FAKES - EVER. They will be suitably marked to prevent fraudulent sale.

Modern counterfeits (which I prefer to call FAKES) are really just junk that are only as valuable as their silver content (if any). I buy them to document they exist.

My motivation is based on a thought that I had many years ago, but which I first encountered in print about 10 years back. Recently I was mailed another copy of the document by a fellow researcher. In 1903, M. Paul Bordeaux wrote;


Quote:
Numismatists are often at a loss to discern the origin of counterfeits submitted for their examination, when a number of years have elapsed since their fabrication. It is therefore of importance not to delay too long in publishing the documents contained in the archives relating to the issue of currency of this nature.


Truer words were never spoken, I only wish more numismatists had heeded Mr. Bordeaux and had done so. We would be in a far better situation than we are today. For the past 25 years or so I have dreamed of just such a project to document all of the counterfeits I could and to publish them before I die.

Unlike some collectors and experts who want to document only the "historical" forgeries of 100 years ago, I want to document BOTH kinds. So that in the future, numismatists will know when forgeries were actually made.
Edited by swamperbob
12/28/2010 12:35 pm
Valued Member
Pandesalapi's Avatar
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2010  06:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I want to document BOTH kinds. So that in the future, numismatists will know when forgeries were actually made.

We will be looking and waiting for it Bob
Recently I have talked to the maestro of Philippine Counterstamped coins that deals with the above-featured coin, he is also preparing a documentary book about CS counterfeits to includes the names of the forgers, stress features etc...
I hope soon enough, we will be able to easily get hold about these information and reference books.
Sad part about ebay is that sellers of fake ones continue to increase in numbers.
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