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 Replies: 28 / Views: 3,442 |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Very, very well said xshift.....I like that a lot...  When someone comes and states that they are 'new' to all of this VAM stuff, and asks for an attribution.... you give it... the next questions are is it rare, how much is it worth, and where is a good place to sell it.... Do you feel the urge to mentor a person of obvious intentions? To be a mentor, you must choose your students, rather than the other way around.... preaching to an audience of unknown newbies will backfire on the well intentioned mentor more times than not (IMO). This all boils down to the 'uneasy dealer / collector relationship mentioned in the seven topics thread... mentoring is a natural thing to a dealer (if you want to call it mentoring).... it would become a long, arduous task for the collector unless the student already possesses a desire to learn beyond the dollars, and then it could be most rewarding for both student and teacher. Edited by zeewool
12/27/2010 5:22 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts |
Well, preaching.. no. I wouldn't want someone preaching to me and I'd be quick to turn a deaf ear to anyone trying, no matter what the subject was. (I'm a bit contrary that way) In person, maybe, a mentor would be able to choose their students, or be able to weed out ones who are only chasing the money trail. Online (our gen-x) is different.. for every person asking, there are countless others reading who never make a peep. Every attribution for Mister Money-Hungry is a chance to let them all in on the greater part of VAMs - money is cold, but the pleasure derived from learning the huge history of a coin series and the camaraderie available while doing so is where it's at. We may never have a particular someone affected by our conversations actually join in (they may be shy!) but that's alright because we know they're there. Right there. Reading everything.  It's natural in humans to want to know what something is worth. Whether that's a primary or secondary concern is what matters - can the mentor get them interested in *why* this particular coin is rare? Do we, when giving attributions, ever inject the cool facts of how that big die crack happened, or historical background on the mint in question during that year that could have affected it? A funny story, the politics of the time making them rush or blunder, bad humidity conditions possibly affecting dies... anything to make a new person see that coin in their hand as something more than just a hunk of pretty metal they can sell. It's history, it's politics, metallurgy, and even drama, deceit and mayhem.. in their hands. When they're new is when to fire their interest. If we don't tell that new person about all these interesting things, can we really blame them if all they think it's good for is to sell off? Edited for clarityEdited by xshift
12/27/2010 6:33 pm
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I really don't think that I have ever met anyone on a forum who thinks (on such a controversial subject) exactly as I do, before right now... I be likin' it Holmes...  |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
I am not sure I agree that this subject is a sticky whicket. I suspect that a reason folks shy away from discussing it is that "recommendations" from folks would differ on what their definition of "improvement" means to them. I will leave the Dealer suggestion for "improvement" by the way-side for this discussion. If your definition of "improvement" means bringing more people into Vamming, and maybe even more specifically you mean younger folks into Vamming, then I would suggest that that it is really a two-part discussion. First, how do you bring more folks that are already into coin collecting, maybe even specifically Morgan/Peace dollar collecting into the "hobby"? By virute of the age demographics, these folks are likely not Gen-Xs. The answer would be different than trying to get a Gen-Xr into Vamming. I would suggest that first you would have to get any Gen-Xr interested in general coin collecting first, then maybe Vamming. So depending on your target audience, the answer could very well be different. That being said, I do not have a real answer. All I can say is, my most enjoyable Vamming experiences are when I am with friends enjoying the hobby together, in person. If that is the best recommendation to "improve" the VAM hobby, then we are faced with a conundrum. With less social gatherings, and more internet socializing, coin clubs will become less of an option, which is precisely the thing I think would help. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5632 Posts |
Many interesting comments, I see the dealers as a double edged sword, I really DO care if the dealers become more involved in "knowing their products", I on the other hand enjoy Cherrypicking and feeling good about the dealers around that allow me the pleasure to search through their boxes and boxes of "RAW" Morgans, and Peace dollars, THE Anna's and Theresa's, in ALL their glory, they have waiting for the likes of me to "have a go at some of the most beautiful, days gone by designs", I have the pleasure of seeing and holding un told stories of coins and their imperfections we call Vams. I know we have an arena for Vams associated with the topic and it is very unique in that we as a group give our educated experienced input, unedited, and from collector to dealer, this is a good thing and a powerful tool to assist us in the learning curve's ahead, I also feel ....."I agree that re-inventing the wheel is not necessary however it needs some maintenance...." that statement does command some comments from all involved, I mean to say, I have seen the comment about we all knowing there is another member who has their own site, for Cents, I do not see the market cornered and see nothing wrong with developing our own library of our own to have with in it a complete set of pictures and PUP'S to refer to along the way for EVERYONE.Does not have to be a competition thing and if anything, it could serve as a combined effort to serve others and I. I do not mean to have a competition of forces, I mean OUR OWN views, our own visual aids and the PUP'S that go with them, I do not know if many here visit the dealers site, I do and the while the passion of some is very obvious, I do not see an organized knowledge base developed or any level of entitlement to just that site , as far as having the passion to adventure out and look to better the tomorrows for you and I. I know here on this site there are those who post, lurk, comment and look for answers, I too would like to assist in the movement for the advancement of coin collectors, not sure there are "openings" on the corners, for any growth ideas, I do know that certain sites TODAY, have the members to Advance our hobby, and it would seem, some sites DO NOT wish to go forward, for reasons I am NOT aware of, this is not a good sign for the collectors, dealers maybe, collectors, NOT......Well the cherry picking benefit is great, the other aspects?? Goes back to just who is driving the VAM train.... I guess at the end of the day, when all the dust settles, I am very privilaged to have a part in sharing the passions we have today, and hope the next generation has learned something from everyones input and effort, when dealing with the coins of days gone by!! |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
If your definition of "improvement" means bringing more people into Vamming, Interesting, and this causes me to rethink my interpretation of the OP's post.... I did not take it as a desire to increase numbers, but more of a hope of converting (or at least saving) those who are already being drawn into vamming.... I really don't think that any additional efforts are required to recruit new blood.... dealers are doing a pretty good job of that already.... the problem is that they chase the new folks off at a rate commensurate with the draw.... the hype is easy to swallow, but the lack of transparency that follows almost resembles a bait and switch scam......Yeah, it is a Top-50 coin, yeah it is an R-7, yeah I paid you $500 for it, so how come I can't get any takers on the resale at $250? What does R-7 really mean? Try mentoring someone after an experience like that.... just try. Dealers are shooting their own toes off, while looking around for the next victim. |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Maybe Oz needs to define "improvement" as he intended in his original post. I may have mis-interpreted it.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Yeah, I'm confused....(but maybe that was his intention...he is kinda tricky sometimes).. |
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Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
If "improvement" means as I interpreted it, then my answer stands above.
"Improvement" in Oz's opening statement could mean many things. Likely we all just assumed we knew what he meant, based on our biases and thoughts about the "hobby".
I mentioned above about putting the "dealers" perspective aside. I just assumed everyone would recognize that "improvement" in dealers eyes means better and higher prices. I don't want to touch that one here.
If "improvement" means returning the hobby to actual collectors and hobbiests and removing dealer interests, then I would suggest this is not possible. The two are irrevocably intertwined.
If someone can buy something, and turn around and sell it for a profit, then there will be "dealers". Period. This is the case for the Vamming "hobby". Simple supply-demand.
If someone picks a 87-P V-1B for let's say, $50. Regardless of condition, that person could turn around and find a buyer who would pay more than $50. Likely substantially more. Simple capitalism. I cannot think of a way to "improve" this situation. It is what it is.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Okay buddy.... I see all of your definitions exactly the same way you do. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
in all your (posts) words, leave me humble, and ignorant.. or Gullable..........as there is a huge consperiacy to over value VAM's, and that vamming is nothing more than contributing to this end...... THE DEALERS KNOW THIS.... its all hype...very few vams have the least known found...and command prices due to this very fact...the rest are common but cool to look and find....ITS NOT WORTH THERE TIME>>>.IF MONEY is all you are after THEN QUIT BEFORE YOU START....your still looking for a copper 1943 penny.... There is a rich history here. if you don't want to know and understand it...Get lost its not worth your time....It takes a lot of time.... While others will always still try to profit if they stumble across something good, the rest is common...... AND WHILE WE CONTINUE TO OVER SPEAK OF ALL THE MINOR POSSIBLE NEGATIVES(the global conspiracy)I wish we can get back to basics...... this negative theme has run FAR TO LONG....... WHY ARE YOU HERE.......to advance or condemn....... Perhaps I am an idealist.....to try to remain focused on the prime idea...what the details of vamming involve.. my crime to society...and voicing such an opinion. In that money as I know its within the game, that I am not apart of it.... But I am not so foolish to think its not part of the game.. let the NEGATIVITY END.......if you truely want to advance this idea, the knowledge and what is a VAM THEN QUIT PROMOTING THE DOWNSIDE we know its there. WHY LIFT IT UPON HIGH as if this is the absolute understanding.....the total endgame.......IT IS NOT>>>>> But I am a fool, who has old world beliefs in honor and loyalty...and morality....such things don't exist today with the love of money...still there are a few of us. are here....for the principle, I will not post any more on this subject |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
709 Posts |
When I asked what would **you** do to improve the hobby, I was hopeful many would step up and offer suggestions.
Each of us has our own ethnocentric view of vamming. By that I mean our views are based off of our own experiences and to a certain extent our own biases. There is a steep learning curve that must be over come to be proficient at vamming. I believe one way this steep learning curve can be over come is by a mentorship program. I was fortunate in that I have two mentors. It didn't hurt that I was a willing student and facinated by the beauty, artistry and history of these magnificent artifacts.
It also didn't hurt that I was also facinated by the process and dynamiics that were in play when these beauties came into being.
Knowledge is dynamic. I believe in sharing that knowledge, all of it.
I feel that if we are going to share information, share all of it. If we are going to teach, teach all of it and that includes all pick up points (pups).
I think the difference in teaching methodolgy is readily apparent here at coin community.
I believe you achieve greater height by uplifting all rather than stepping on a few to make yourself look taller.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
there is a definite difference from a "Hand Up" than a "hand out".....
I think this is where it begins...A reaching hand to uplift those with questions and demonstrations to show the differences...I'll post something new tonight after work.....
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Replies: 28 / Views: 3,442 |
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Posted 12/27/2010 6:25 pm
