Spanish 4 Reales 1735 Momf - Feels Like A Copy

MathieuMa I think your feelings are correct about the coin being a Numismatic Forgery. Your observations are good but not complete.

However, just a caution, it is difficult to be totally certain from a photograph alone. You have the coin in hand so you can look for things we can not see.

By the way the pictures are great - about as good as one could ever hope for.

One key area of concern is always the rim. You say

The coin appears to have been edged AFTER it was struck (which is correct) but the segments look incorrect to my eye. Each segment seems slightly different. The dies used for the edge were normally punched from a pattern segment - so that there can be a slight variation BUT the various specific segments should repeat. Here they seem individually crafted. Have you checked for the overlaps in the edge design? Are they visible and do they appear at 180 degrees apart? Also there seems to be no wear on the edge but the faces clearly show significant wear. Is the coin a weak strike with luster? Is the wear on the faces consistent with the edge?

You say,

I agree that the you is odd - but it is because the 2 U's are NOT identical NOT because of the design of the U. The 1835 coins did use a letter you that had a tail at the base the right side pointing downward - but this feature was part of the punch used to make the letter. Here it appears that in both cases a second stroke of an engraving tool added the tail to the U's and in each case it is DIFFERENT.

The shape of the 5 in the date is also "technically" correct but to my eye looks wrong. I can't get a handle on it but something looks off. The punches used for most lettering in this time period have a rather shallow set depth so that you often see the base of the punch where the letter joins the punch body.




Here again I agree but the real N punch looks very similar to this BUT it appears the thickness of the uprights were added to the letter and were not part of the punch. This can be checked with a good microscope.





That is a great observation. The dentils are not radial but appear to have been engraved one at a time - not punched.


* border of the coin has a round line (both sides)

I do not really understand this comment. I did notice part of a line running near the dentils that looks like a guideline. These are not normally observed BUT can be present on the die if it was not properly finished. The guideline marks and ticks used by the die sinkers are normally ground off before the die goes into service.




This does not bother me too much - they often were asymmetrical. But the bottom figure is really odd looking.

One thing you did not mention was the apparent porosity and discoloration of the metal. Above the Crown on the date side - there are apparent pores in the metal that make me suspicious. In the same area I see curved line segments that look like carbon spots in the metal. One of the big ones looks like a 3 on its back. These types of streaks often are features associated with casting.

Once again, I tend to agree with your assessment, but I can not be 100% sure.

Weight and specific gravity in this case may not be too helpful since I suspect a forger doing this well with the dies may have gotten the alloy right.

You are welcome

Yes, I've discovered the SG test in the forum, bookmarked the link :)
I have to buy a nice scale, and will do the test on those coins (I have 2 other ones to check out actually - others I got are for sure fakes from china)

Quote: "This is a chinese fake forgery. 100% sure of it."

+1. The edge is just like a number of China fakes I have......but "unlike" any original I have seen.

Thanks all for your comments. I'm learning - and trying to easily spot common fakes :D